Boutiques and Latency/Lag, Your thoughts?

[Synthtron]

I only saw one post about latency with the JX-03 here on the Roland Clan Forums but I have seen an interesting post on a Facebook group.https://www.facebook.com/groups/1651449 ... up_comment
Lag or latency in the Boutiques has been confirmed at least in the first 3 models (JP,JX, JU). Someone claimed the lag is 15ms.

I am curious what others think. Can you actually hear 15ms of delay in sound?

Also is the lag or ltency really a 15ms delay or is it shorter or longer?

[cloudburst]

Popcorn in hand. We're all set! ;-)

CB

[Synthtron]

Popcorn in hand. We're all set! ;-)

CB

I honestly am not expecting much. Is the Forum really that busy anymore?

[Synthtron]

My first impressions with the SH-01A and TR-08 when I synced them up was that there was definitely some latency when compared to all the other hardware I use. I don't have a real 808, but I can definitely say the SH-01A is nowhere near as 'tight' as a real 101 in terms of sync.

15ms sounds about right to me, as that's around what I had to shift it by in Ableton to get it to be completely on the beat. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if I didn't have other things that then triggered early as a result.

It's not noticeable on all material, but I definitely won't be running beats in Ableton at the same time as the TR-08 is playing. I guess it's not too different from using a longer guitar cable or standing further away from an amp, but I definitely notice it more with 'electronic' kit like the boutiques.

That is interesting that you notice lag on the SH-01a and TR-08. I have only heard about it on the first three Boutique releases. I already have the JP-08 and JX-03 and am getting a SH-01a soon so I can see myself too.

Not much those of us that use hardware sequencers can do to tighten up the slower synths but I have honestly not really noticed it so I guess it depends on sounds used and type of music and maybe BPM too.

[Chug Norris]

Hi All.

It was me that made the original facebook post in the link above, and who made the video clip of the test which seems to prove the latency definitively.

https://youtu.be/FmnXzoCktOY

Below is my correspondence with Roland in light of this video. It shows that they acknowledge the problem, and that it is seemingly unfixable. Whole conversation happened within 24 hours:

_________________________________________

Hi Roland.

I've been a user and evangelist of your products for a quarter of a century. I've done videos demonstrating your equipment ,which you have shared on your official Facebook pages.

But your 1st generation Boutique synths are still suffering from unacceptable latency - so much so that I can't use them alongside other Aira stuff (through an MX-1) in a live situation without them sounding badly out of time. There is a provable minimum 15ms of latency. Here is a video I have posted proving it - it is sparking much interest on the Boutique Users FB group right now.

https://youtu.be/FmnXzoCktOY

PLEASE Roland - you are normally very good at listening to your customers when things like this happen. Is there ANYTHING you can do to help? We love the sound of these synths, but Boutique users are really struiggling to use them as intended right now.

Kind Regards,

__________________________________________

Hi

Thank you for your video.

•Very good informative video I must say!

To be honest I have not come across this issue before, but testing our unit ( JX-03 ) alongside a old beast (JV-1010) using 5 Pin Midi, you can also clearly see the JX is behind.

I will pass this video along to Japan and await their comments.

____________________________________________

Thanks *****, nice to get a reply so quickly and know that someone is on the case. For what it’s worth, 15ms is the lowest latency I can prove - it tends to be a fair bit more when using USB through a DAW. Best of luck getting Japan to look at this.

Cheers

_______________________________________________

Hi

No worries.

Ok, I have had a reply from Japan, and they confirm that this is the specification of the ACB technology.

There are no plans of any firmware update (or even if it is possible) unfortunately.

Sorry that I could not give the outcome we wanted.

Any other comments/issues just come to me.

_____________________________________

Oh dear that is bad news ******... oh well, all I can do just is spread the official word then, help to stop people wasting time trying to fix the fundamentally flawed, buying expensive hubs etc etc to try and stop it. Be nice if Roland could make a public announcement but of course I understand that’s highly unlikely.

Anyway, thanks for your efforts.

[Chug Norris]

Haha Matt P, I'm not sure I did keep my cool at all, especially when I made the mistake of going in there after a couple of beers... Plus one or two of the worst gaslighters ended up deleting a whole string of their posts when they realised they'd painted themselves into a corner, leaving all my replies which now look slightly insane. One guy even got a bit threatening and started trying to bombard me with live video calls around midnight, so I had to block him! Hey ho, such is life on the internet. As I say on the thread, I learned much more about human nature than I did about lag in Roland products.

[cloudburst]

Great video Chug Norris.

I’ve got the 3 originals plus a VP-03 and TR-08.

Happy to compare new with old. An interesting experiment would be to dock the JU in my K-25m and have it MIDI trigger one of my newer boutiques, checking the audio outs for latency.

CB

[Darkside]

Hi. I have a Tb-03 and can conferm, that it synced with Akai Rhythm Wolf without problems via trigger, but while trying to sequence other synths through midi with it, sometimes strange things really do happen. I'm about to get myself the Tr-08 and so it would be possible to use them both synced up via analog triggering and hopefully should work nicely. It's also quite funky, that cv/gate does actually work with stuff like eurorack.

[raoul flutter]

I noticed this latency from the beginning with the first series while playing some basslines along with drums from a JD-Xi, and wondered why it didn't sounded tight.

I have also measured about 15 ms latency on the the first three boutiques. I use them via midi from an MPC1000, and delays the other tracks so that it is tight. MPC1000 is 96 ppqn, so in 120 bpm one tick equals 5,2 ms (500 ms/96) so I delay the other tracks 3 ticks in 120 bpm, if I find it necessary. Mostly on basslines and arpeggios. In midi sync and playing the internal sequencers the latency is about 14 ms.

The SH-01A is tighter with latency about 3 ms with midi and less than 1 ms while playing the internal sequencer.

The SH-01A is also ACB but tighter, so they must have done something about the code or the hardware from the first three.

[marclr]

Hi, guys !

Here in France, the first generation boutique latency is a hudge debate from months...
We have done mesurments... see here : https://fr.audiofanzine.com/roland/bout ... etail.html

We have found 16ms (on a jx-03)



Sad to read that Roland will do nothing to solve this problem...
Good to see other people have the same problem & Roland start to recognise it...

[Chug Norris]

Thanks marclr. Trust the French Brothers & Sisters to be ahead of the game! I wish I'd payed more attention at school, maybe then I could understand the thread. But it's obvious you've been on the case properly, great to see - although obviously a sad outcome... Cheers.

[orcoaffamato]

I tested the latency of my three old JU-06, JP-08 and JX-03 and the worst of the three in my setup is the JP-08 with a latency of 18,60 ms; JX-03 and JP-06 have a latency of 7,80 ms.
The Boutiques are connected with MIDI cables to my RME Fireface 802 via two KENTON boxes (MIDI MERGE 4 and THRU 25) and are MIDI chained in this way: JP-08 -> JX-03 -> JU-06 (if I adjust the latency of the JP-08 in Ableton automatically also the latency of the other two Boutiques is adjusted).
I have no latency at all if I use USB MIDI, instead I have noise...

[orcoaffamato]

I took a screenshot of Ableton's Boutiques Latency test Live Set and as you can see JP-08 (the worst of the three), JX-03 and JU-06 are late, but TR-09 is ahead every beat.



I can compensate latency in Ableton, but I have no idea how to solve TR-09 issue.
Any of you has the same problem?

[Benm]

I took a screenshot of Ableton's Boutiques Latency test Live Set and as you can see JP-08 (the worst of the three), JX-03 and JU-06 are late, but TR-09 is ahead every beat.



I can compensate latency in Ableton, but I have no idea how to solve TR-09 issue.
Any of you has the same problem?

What method did you set up to get latency compensation in ableton for the jp-08? Trying to find the optimal strategy

[cloudburst]

I have no latency at all if I use USB MIDI, instead I have noise...

Bit of a workaround, but what's the noise situation like if you use USB MIDI but reboot your JP-08 holding down the Patch Preset 1 button each time whilst powering on (to force use of batteries rather than USB power)?

EDIT: I did a very quick comparison using my JP-08 and don't get the same results as you. With MIDI cable connection or MIDI over USB to the JP-08, I get a 10ms delay. I'm not using USB for audio. My belief is that the latency is caused by the JP-08's processing throughput to produce the note once it receives the MIDI instruction. But, I'm no expert.

CB