Tr-09 + tr-727/707

[AndrewHenderson]

Hey Guys.

I currently have a Roland TR-09, which I really enjoy. I was hoping for a 707/727 Boutique release, but I feel that likely, isn't going to happen now.

With this said, I am wondering if it would be possible to hook a real 707/727 up to the TR-09 and use it that way? I don't really see why not, but want to make sure, before I hunt down an expensive, old, 707/727.

I assume I would have to hook the midi out of the TR-09, into the midi in of the 707/727, to have both receive midi clock, simultaneously? My TR-09 is currently receiving midi clock, from the midi out of my RME Fireface 802.

Since I am all out of inputs on my interface, I was wondering if I could take the main/stereo output of the 707/727 and feed that into the mix input of the TR-09, to be able to have both routed to the same input, on my interface and simply mix levels from each both, the 707/727, into the TR-09?

Does anyone know if the main/stereo output of the 707/727 is balanced, or unbalanced connections? Do you think I can use the phones output of the 707/727, into the mix input of the TR-09? Would there be enough signal strength for that, to cut down on cables needed?

If there is anything I am missing on the above, or you guys have any recommendations, or suggestions, on how I can get all this to work, I would love to hear from you. I just want to know if I can sync a really old 707/727 to a brand new TR-09 reliably, timing wise and if anyone is familiar with using the mix input on the TR09 and whether it can adequately accept and use signals from gear, other than other Boutique synths.

Thanks so much for your time and effort in replying.

[Mark76]

Seems overcomplicated to me.

Couldn't you just buy a TR8 and buy the 707/727 expansion pack?
Original 707s go for roughly the same money as a TR8 and is essentially just a sampled drum machine.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why you would want an original. I've got one and I can tell you it is a really sweet sounding drum machine and I love jamming with it, but I've had mine for years, and I'm not sure I would pay the going rate for one these days.

I just think you would be better off with the TR8, although the individual outs and CV out on the original is fun!

[AndrewHenderson]

Thanks for the reply! I hear ya about the TR-8, but I decided against getting that when I first got the TR-09 and I can't see that changing now. I am all about limitations and working in an original fashion, which is why the 707 is seeming so appealing to me.

Despite maybe not being the most economical way of working, can I still do what I want to do, with what I listed above?

Can I slave the 707 from the TR-09 to share midi clock, to stay in sync?

Can I route the 707 into the mix input of the TR-09, to share the same inputs on my interface?

[Stormchild]

I believe the 707 and 727 both support MIDI and can just be synced to MIDI clock like the boutiques.

If you’re using a DAW, you’d send MIDI clock directly to each device. It only makes sense to slave the 707/727 to a TR-09 if the TR-09 is your master MIDI clock source, which is usually not the case.

[AndrewHenderson]

I believe the 707 and 727 both support MIDI and can just be synced to MIDI clock like the boutiques.

If you’re using a DAW, you’d send MIDI clock directly to each device. It only makes sense to slave the 707/727 to a TR-09 if the TR-09 is your master MIDI clock source, which is usually not the case.

Thanks for the additional insight into this. So from what I gather, it either won't work, or won't be as tight/reliable, to have midi clock coming into the TR-09 being sent as a thru from the TR-09 output and into the 707/727, to share incoming clock from the same source? I would need to send midi clock directly into the 707/727, on its own?

Do you know how reliably the mix input works on the TR-09? I have no additional inputs on my interface, so was hoping to take the outputs from the 707/727 and feed them into the TR-09 mix input, to have both drum machines play together, into the same inputs on my interface. I could balance both drum machines against each other and into the same audio track in Cubase. Is there any limiations/restrictions/sound quality issues, when using the mix input on the TR-09? I tried looking around and can't find any mention of anyone actually doing this. I just hope I am not missing anything and would like to know all I am getting into, before I start.

Thanks so much again, I really appreciate your time and patience with me, on this.

[Stormchild]

Thanks for the additional insight into this. So from what I gather, it either won't work, or won't be as tight/reliable, to have midi clock coming into the TR-09 being sent as a thru from the TR-09 output and into the 707/727, to share incoming clock from the same source? I would need to send midi clock directly into the 707/727, on its own?

The way you physically connect your MIDI devices doesn't change how MIDI clock works. Whether you connect each device to a MIDI interface with multiple ports or chain them with the THRU ports, no device can be a MIDI clock master and slave at the same time. One device sends MIDI clock, all other devices receive it.

Depending on what DAW you're using, you might have the ability to send MIDI clock to "all" devices (for example, Logic has this option). This is more efficient because it sends a single stream of MIDI clock pulses addressed to "any" channel. Sending MIDI clock to specific devices gives you a bit more control (you can choose which ones to send MIDI clock to and use a different timing offset for each one), but increases MIDI traffic because the master has to send multiple streams of pulses, each addressed to a specific MIDI channel.

If you have a lot of older MIDI devices, connecting them all directly to a single MIDI interface is supposed to improve the timing. Will the 707 and 727 be your only MIDI devices that connect with the old DIN cables? If so, I think you can safely connect the 707 to the THRU port on the TR-09, and the 727 to the THRU port on the 707, and you should be fine.

In my case I'm sending MIDI clock to seven devices (including the TR-09 and four other boutiques), but all of them are connected via USB, which (as far as I understand) avoids a lot of the problems of the old cables. In Logic I send MIDI clock to all devices. In Ableton Live I send MIDI clock to each one (because it doesn't have an "all" option). In both cases everything is nicely in sync, even when also sending MIDI notes to several devices at once. You'll have to tweak the MIDI clock offset to get everything to line up with the metronome in your DAW, but that's true of all MIDI devices (including the TR-09).

The other option is to use the trigger track on the TR-09 to sync the 707 the old school way (and then use the rimshot on the 707 to trigger the 727 the same way). I have no idea how well this works. I've used trigger out/in to have my boutiques control other boutiques and it's a lot of fun, but I'd probably stick with MIDI clock for proper syncing.

Do you know how reliably the mix input works on the TR-09? I have no additional inputs on my interface, so was hoping to take the outputs from the 707/727 and feed them into the TR-09 mix input, to have both drum machines play together, into the same inputs on my interface. I could balance both drum machines against each other and into the same audio track in Cubase. Is there any limiations/restrictions/sound quality issues, when using the mix input on the TR-09? I tried looking around and can't find any mention of anyone actually doing this. I just hope I am not missing anything and would like to know all I am getting into, before I start.

I have no issues with the mix inputs on any of my boutiques. They can all act as USB audio interfaces and they worked well when I tried them. Incoming audio sounds perfectly fine to me. I'm sure if you put them under a microscope the converters aren't as good as an Apogee or Apollo but I'm not convinced that stuff matters as much as some people think. Especially won't matter for the 12-bit samples on the 707/727.

If you're using a Mac, you can create an aggregate device and capture the audio from the TR-09 over USB instead of using a pair of inputs on your main audio interface. You can then connect the 707 and 727 to either your main audio interface or the mix input on the TR-09. If your audio interface has 1/4" inputs I would recommend that over the TR-09 mix input, just because you can use sturdier cables (maybe they're even balanced outputs). Either way you'll have to sum the inputs somehow. Splitters should work but a little mixer would be nicer.

[Stormchild]

Personally I'd just use samples or a TR-8/8S but as a boutique addict I totally get the appeal of the workflow and limitations of classic hardware. Would be cool if they made a TR-07 that has the sounds of both the 707 and 727. Not sure how they'd do the grid display though.

[AndrewHenderson]

Personally I'd just use samples or a TR-8/8S but as a boutique addict I totally get the appeal of the workflow and limitations of classic hardware. Would be cool if they made a TR-07 that has the sounds of both the 707 and 727. Not sure how they'd do the grid display though.

This is EXACTLY what I was holding out for, but gave up. I thought they could do a single box that plays both units sounds, even mix and match them per say. It has been two years of me waiting, so I am not waiting any more and am just going to get the original boxes and be done with it.

The display is something that crossed my mind too, unless they just did without it and left it to program like the TR-09, which is pretty much identical in terms of programming anyways.

[AndrewHenderson]

Thanks for the additional insight into this. So from what I gather, it either won't work, or won't be as tight/reliable, to have midi clock coming into the TR-09 being sent as a thru from the TR-09 output and into the 707/727, to share incoming clock from the same source? I would need to send midi clock directly into the 707/727, on its own?

The way you physically connect your MIDI devices doesn't change how MIDI clock works. Whether you connect each device to a MIDI interface with multiple ports or chain them with the THRU ports, no device can be a MIDI clock master and slave at the same time. One device sends MIDI clock, all other devices receive it.

Depending on what DAW you're using, you might have the ability to send MIDI clock to "all" devices (for example, Logic has this option). This is more efficient because it sends a single stream of MIDI clock pulses addressed to "any" channel. Sending MIDI clock to specific devices gives you a bit more control (you can choose which ones to send MIDI clock to and use a different timing offset for each one), but increases MIDI traffic because the master has to send multiple streams of pulses, each addressed to a specific MIDI channel.

If you have a lot of older MIDI devices, connecting them all directly to a single MIDI interface is supposed to improve the timing. Will the 707 and 727 be your only MIDI devices that connect with the old DIN cables? If so, I think you can safely connect the 707 to the THRU port on the TR-09, and the 727 to the THRU port on the 707, and you should be fine.

In my case I'm sending MIDI clock to seven devices (including the TR-09 and four other boutiques), but all of them are connected via USB, which (as far as I understand) avoids a lot of the problems of the old cables. In Logic I send MIDI clock to all devices. In Ableton Live I send MIDI clock to each one (because it doesn't have an "all" option). In both cases everything is nicely in sync, even when also sending MIDI notes to several devices at once. You'll have to tweak the MIDI clock offset to get everything to line up with the metronome in your DAW, but that's true of all MIDI devices (including the TR-09).

The other option is to use the trigger track on the TR-09 to sync the 707 the old school way (and then use the rimshot on the 707 to trigger the 727 the same way). I have no idea how well this works. I've used trigger out/in to have my boutiques control other boutiques and it's a lot of fun, but I'd probably stick with MIDI clock for proper syncing.

Do you know how reliably the mix input works on the TR-09? I have no additional inputs on my interface, so was hoping to take the outputs from the 707/727 and feed them into the TR-09 mix input, to have both drum machines play together, into the same inputs on my interface. I could balance both drum machines against each other and into the same audio track in Cubase. Is there any limiations/restrictions/sound quality issues, when using the mix input on the TR-09? I tried looking around and can't find any mention of anyone actually doing this. I just hope I am not missing anything and would like to know all I am getting into, before I start.

I have no issues with the mix inputs on any of my boutiques. They can all act as USB audio interfaces and they worked well when I tried them. Incoming audio sounds perfectly fine to me. I'm sure if you put them under a microscope the converters aren't as good as an Apogee or Apollo but I'm not convinced that stuff matters as much as some people think. Especially won't matter for the 12-bit samples on the 707/727.

If you're using a Mac, you can create an aggregate device and capture the audio from the TR-09 over USB instead of using a pair of inputs on your main audio interface. You can then connect the 707 and 727 to either your main audio interface or the mix input on the TR-09. If your audio interface has 1/4" inputs I would recommend that over the TR-09 mix input, just because you can use sturdier cables (maybe they're even balanced outputs). Either way you'll have to sum the inputs somehow. Splitters should work but a little mixer would be nicer.

I actually do have an oldskool midi patchbay. The Digital Music Corp MX-8. Don't ask me why, but it didn't even cross my mind to use that, even though I have two free out ports that I could use for the drum machines. I really hateg working in my rack, so likely wrote it off mentally, as I didn't want to deal with the hassles of pulling the MX-8 out to get behind it, as I can't reach it any other way. It wasn't until you mentioned in your first reply that each machine should be on its own port, that it dawned on me.

If there is zero difference, I would like to thru midi clock coming into the TR-09, into the 707, but if it would be better to use a spare output port of my midi patchbay, that is an option.

The TR-09 and 707 are not the only oldskool midi devices I have. I also have an E-MU Orbit, a Quasimidi Technox and a JV-1080, so lots going on in terms of midi cables.

Thanks for confirming that input on the TR-09 is good to use. I have zero inputs free on my RME Fireface 802, so the only way I could do more, is to mix into another unit. I figured since they are both drum related and will work in tandem, I have no problem mixing the two together and outputting as a single, stereo file into Cubase where I would globally EQ and process the drums as a whole.

[Stormchild]

Personally I'd just use samples or a TR-8/8S but as a boutique addict I totally get the appeal of the workflow and limitations of classic hardware. Would be cool if they made a TR-07 that has the sounds of both the 707 and 727. Not sure how they'd do the grid display though.

This is EXACTLY what I was holding out for, but gave up. I thought they could do a single box that plays both units sounds, even mix and match them per say. It has been two years of me waiting, so I am not waiting any more and am just going to get the original boxes and be done with it.

I don't think it's very likely, but the idea does have merit. While the 7X7s are "just samples", they're 12-bit samples that have a particular tone and punch to them as a result of the technology that was used (much like the LinnDrum and other sample-based drum machines it was probably meant to compete with). Could be an ideal candidate for a DCB emulation.

And as you said yourself, there is much more to these things than just the sounds. What really drew me to the boutiques is the classic workflows (clunky as they may be, they do force you to think differently about how you use them), and the look and feel. The personality of these old instruments was the sum of all those parts.

Even if it's not practical to recreate the grid display, a TR-07 could still include the sliders for mixing the sounds. In fact, without the display, you could probably fit two sets of sliders so you can control both the 707 and 727 sounds and use them all simultaneously. They might have to group the USB outputs though (22 outputs is probably too much to ask).

Another reason I bought the TR-08 + TR-09 instead of a TR-8S is you can use all 22 sounds at the same time (27 if you use MIDI) instead of having to choose 11. If they made a TR-07 that can use all 20 sounds, the three boutiques could practically form Voltron.

I would definitely buy this thing if they made it.

[Stormchild]

If there is zero difference, I would like to thru midi clock coming into the TR-09, into the 707, but if it would be better to use a spare output port of my midi patchbay, that is an option.

The TR-09 and 707 are not the only oldskool midi devices I have. I also have an E-MU Orbit, a Quasimidi Technox and a JV-1080, so lots going on in terms of midi cables.

If Cubase lets you specify a different MIDI clock offset for each device, you should be able to tweak it to get everything in sync. This method does send multiple MIDI clock streams, but I doubt you will have any noticeable sync issues chaining two devices from the TR-09's MIDI output.

Thanks for confirming that input on the TR-09 is good to use. I have zero inputs free on my RME Fireface 802, so the only way I could do more, is to mix into another unit. I figured since they are both drum related and will work in tandem, I have no problem mixing the two together and outputting as a single, stereo file into Cubase where I would globally EQ and process the drums as a whole.

If you use the USB audio of the TR-09 you will also be able to choose specific TR-09 sounds to send over the 4 separate outputs, so you can at least apply some processing to a few of the sounds like the kick, snare, or clap. The rest of the TR-09 sounds and any audio you run into the Mix Input will come in over the main stereo pair. You won't be able to pan or post-process the 707/727 sounds though, unless you record them individually and move them to their own audio tracks.

[AndrewHenderson]

Personally I'd just use samples or a TR-8/8S but as a boutique addict I totally get the appeal of the workflow and limitations of classic hardware. Would be cool if they made a TR-07 that has the sounds of both the 707 and 727. Not sure how they'd do the grid display though.

This is EXACTLY what I was holding out for, but gave up. I thought they could do a single box that plays both units sounds, even mix and match them per say. It has been two years of me waiting, so I am not waiting any more and am just going to get the original boxes and be done with it.

I don't think it's very likely, but the idea does have merit. While the 7X7s are "just samples", they're 12-bit samples that have a particular tone and punch to them as a result of the technology that was used (much like the LinnDrum and other sample-based drum machines it was probably meant to compete with). Could be an ideal candidate for a DCB emulation.

And as you said yourself, there is much more to these things than just the sounds. What really drew me to the boutiques is the classic workflows (clunky as they may be, they do force you to think differently about how you use them), and the look and feel. The personality of these old instruments was the sum of all those parts.

Even if it's not practical to recreate the grid display, a TR-07 could still include the sliders for mixing the sounds. In fact, without the display, you could probably fit two sets of sliders so you can control both the 707 and 727 sounds and use them all simultaneously. They might have to group the USB outputs though (22 outputs is probably too much to ask).

Another reason I bought the TR-08 + TR-09 instead of a TR-8S is you can use all 22 sounds at the same time (27 if you use MIDI) instead of having to choose 11. If they made a TR-07 that can use all 20 sounds, the three boutiques could practically form Voltron.

I would definitely buy this thing if they made it.

VERY great idea! Forgo the grid display and instead, put in two sets of sliders, one for each sound. With a proper circuit emulation, I think the unit would sound very good and with the original workflow intact, I think it would be very powerful and paired with the other boutique drum machines, Voltron sounds about right! ;)

[AndrewHenderson]

If there is zero difference, I would like to thru midi clock coming into the TR-09, into the 707, but if it would be better to use a spare output port of my midi patchbay, that is an option.

The TR-09 and 707 are not the only oldskool midi devices I have. I also have an E-MU Orbit, a Quasimidi Technox and a JV-1080, so lots going on in terms of midi cables.

If Cubase lets you specify a different MIDI clock offset for each device, you should be able to tweak it to get everything in sync. This method does send multiple MIDI clock streams, but I doubt you will have any noticeable sync issues chaining two devices from the TR-09's MIDI output.

Thanks for confirming that input on the TR-09 is good to use. I have zero inputs free on my RME Fireface 802, so the only way I could do more, is to mix into another unit. I figured since they are both drum related and will work in tandem, I have no problem mixing the two together and outputting as a single, stereo file into Cubase where I would globally EQ and process the drums as a whole.

If you use the USB audio of the TR-09 you will also be able to choose specific TR-09 sounds to send over the 4 separate outputs, so you can at least apply some processing to a few of the sounds like the kick, snare, or clap. The rest of the TR-09 sounds and any audio you run into the Mix Input will come in over the main stereo pair. You won't be able to pan or post-process the 707/727 sounds though, unless you record them individually and move them to their own audio tracks.

Unfortunately Cubase is lame in this regard. No delay sync options whatsoever. It is all, or nothing. Apparently Logic and Live, both have what you are talking about however and it seems very helpful.

I don't use the USB on the TR-09, other than for power and this editor (https://tr-09-midi-editor.jimdo.com/). I usually route the outputs to a mono channel on my D-Box anyways, so panning is a moot point for me. If the original 707 can't pan sounds, I am good with that. Keep things as original as possible in how it works. I literally just need to pass the 707 into the TR-09 for mixing purposes, as I have no free inputs on my interface. I think it would be cool to have both boxes play together and swap sounds between each other. Kick from 09, with snare from 707, or add tamborine over a 909 pattern etc. Just trying to get more out of my kit, while not having to change my setup, or workflow too much. As long as I can get levels mixed well between both devices and sit nicely in time together, I am good to go. I would simply compress and EQ the track as a whole and be done with it. I fart around far too much with processing and it is a real time waster.

I think I will test both methods of midi clock connecting and see which fares tighter. Thru from the 09 into the 707, and using a spare output of my midi patchbay and into the 707. I wonder which would be best!

You have been a great help. I really appreciate all your time and patience spent with me. Thanks so much!

[AndrewHenderson]

Hi again,

In checking the tracking number now, my 707 should be in hand early next week. In getting things ready on my end for hook up when it arrives, I got wondering on cabling and how I can route the outputs of the 707, to the mix input of the TR-09.

I am needing a cable that is dual 1/4" TS to single 1/8" TRS, to come out of the L/R outputs of the 707 and into the single input of the TR-09.

I currently have this cable on hand: https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rcc-5-3528/

and is the one I was using to hook the output of my TR-09, into my RME interface, before I upgraded to a Mogami cable.

With this cable already in hand, can I use this? It is a Y/splitter cable and I am actually needing to use it in the 'opposite' direction, which is now having me a bit concerned oh how it will work. Usually one would go 'out' via the 1/8" end and go 'into' something with the dual 1/4" ends. Since I am coming 'out' of the dual 1/4" ends from the 707 and 'into' the single 1/8" in on the TR-09, is this going to be a problem? Can this cable be used in this 'opposite' configuration just fine? Will there be any damage done to either unit, or will I suffer from audio not being the say it should/could?

I am really hopeful this cable will be just fine, but if I am not realizing something and there is a proper/mor suitable cable that I should be using to come out of the dual 1/4" outputs of the 707 and into the single 1/8" input of my TR-09, please do let me know! I want this to be a set and forget connection, so the best possible cable is what I would like to use straight from the start, so I am not missing out on anything, causing me lost time and money on rebuying a proper cable later.

Thanks so much again for anyone who can help me with this. I don't think it is very often that people are connecting things into their boutiques like I am trying to do. Usually it is one boutique into another, at which point a single 1/8" to 1/8" cable would suffice.

[Stormchild]

Dual mono TS to stereo TRS (regardless of plug types) will work in both “directions”.