System-8 vs. JP-08

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System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby buckyswider » 00:41, 9 May 2017

Hi all, just picked up a JP-08 and love the sounds, but its lack of polyphony along with limited MIDI makes it not fit for my purpose. Will the JP-08 fill the gaps- i.e. playback on multiple MIDI channels with different patches? Also, if I have JP-08 patches I love, is it a fairly straightforward (even if time-consuming) to build those sounds on the System-8? Thanks!
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby runningman67 » 19:48, 10 May 2017

I don't know to be honest because I have the System 8 but haven't played the JP 08.

I was looking at the patch list for the the JP 08 and there are a lot of patches missing from that list on the System 8.

I would guess that it is possible to create the sounds but I would go into a shop and play it and ask somebody. PMT Manchester have a dedicated Roland salesperson. I don't know where you are but that's what I would do.

The Jupiter 8 Plugout on the S8 is awesome BTW.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby Acidizer » 12:39, 11 May 2017

if you can determine the values of your patches on the boutique, you should be able to manually input them into the S8. don't think there is another way. S8 doesn't even have a librarian! do the boutiques? (guessing not) the S8 has an SD card, but i don't believe the boutiques do.

are there patches on the JP08 (or JU06) that aren't on the system-8? cause i would be very interested in capturing them somehow if so! could have be grabbed via USB or something'?

not sure if the S8 lifted the patches straight from the boughtiques or what, can anyone clear that up?
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby runningman67 » 12:50, 11 May 2017

Acidizer wrote:if you can determine the values of your patches on the boutique, you should be able to manually input them into the S8. don't think there is another way. S8 doesn't even have a librarian! do the boutiques? (guessing not)

are there patches on the JP08 (or JU06) that aren't on the system-8? cause i would be very interested in capturing them somehow if so!

not sure if the S8 lifted the patches straight from the boughtiques or what, can anyone clear that up?


Theres lots of Patches on the JP08 that we haven't got on the S8. I would also like to know how and if we can get these.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby Acidizer » 13:32, 11 May 2017

definitely interested too.

found this librarian/editor for the JU06 and JP08... "patch sharing utility" :)

http://www.breadandbuttersounds.com/

so that's something... could we use this to extract the patches on the boutiques that aren't in the system-8? then import to system-8 via SD card?

is that possible?
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby rsaintjohn » 15:21, 11 May 2017

Acidizer wrote:definitely interested too.

found this librarian/editor for the JU06 and JP08... "patch sharing utility" :)

http://www.breadandbuttersounds.com/

so that's something... could we use this to extract the patches on the boutiques that aren't in the system-8? then import to system-8 via SD card?

is that possible?


No, the file formats are completely different, as are the values and value ranges for the settings. BUT, the breadandbuttersounds.com site is probably the easiest way to call up a visual of the Boutique patches, and then manually replicate them on the System-8. You'll still need to tweak and take other things into account (like the impact of S8 effects, extra voices, etc.). But call up a patch on B&B, start with a true Init patch on the appropriate S8 plug-out, and go at it. Only takes a few minutes for each patch, and this method takes a lot of the guesswork out.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby Acidizer » 16:26, 11 May 2017

rsaintjohn wrote:
Acidizer wrote:definitely interested too.

found this librarian/editor for the JU06 and JP08... "patch sharing utility" :)

http://www.breadandbuttersounds.com/

so that's something... could we use this to extract the patches on the boutiques that aren't in the system-8? then import to system-8 via SD card?

is that possible?


No, the file formats are completely different, as are the values and value ranges for the settings. BUT, the breadandbuttersounds.com site is probably the easiest way to call up a visual of the Boutique patches, and then manually replicate them on the System-8. You'll still need to tweak and take other things into account (like the impact of S8 effects, extra voices, etc.). But call up a patch on B&B, start with a true Init patch on the appropriate S8 plug-out, and go at it. Only takes a few minutes for each patch, and this method takes a lot of the guesswork out.


damn... but nice we can manually dial them in this way. don't have any of the boutiques though. otherwise i would have been up for trying this... seems labourious, but could be good practice.

another curiosity - the roland cloud, are the patches identical to the system-8's or what? (i think so) and does the cloud VSTs have librarians?

here are the original threads where i found the bread&butter editors, some useful tidbits within. the guy was basically wanting the original 1980's patches on the boutiques.

https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/c ... 8_patches/
https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/c ... 6_patches/

i wonder if this guy (or anyone else) could knock up a S8 librarian. would definitely donate towards that.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby buckyswider » 16:47, 11 May 2017

Interesting stuff everybody! I have the JP-08 but not the System-8, so if anyone wants I can reverse engineer the JP-08 settings (via the bread&butter utility) to see if you can recreate on the System-8. The premise (for me; please don't yell at me if you find this use too pedestrian!) is a set of third-party JP-08 patches which emulate some classic Vince Clarke sounds. I got the JP-08 specifically for that but was quite disappointed when I learned (caveat emptor, I guess) that the JP-08 is basically a single-voice instruments, with only 4 voice polyphony too boot. And I guess to be honest, the S8 only having 8 voice polyphony doesn't really bode well for my intended use either.

You can go to youtube and check out the JP-08 Yazoo and Depeche Mode recreations this guy cooked up. They do sound incredible, but it wasn't until purchasing everything and setting everything up that I learned that the videos were all done one track at a time- so would take 5 or 6 JP-08 units to re-create in realtime...

Anyhow, if anyone wants a setting breakdown from the JP-08 to try to recreate on the S8 let me know...
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby rsaintjohn » 16:59, 11 May 2017

Acidizer wrote:damn... but nice we can manually dial them in this way. don't have any of the boutiques though. otherwise i would have been up for trying this... seems labourious, but could be good practice.


You don't even need a Boutique. Just tap that "Public Library" button at the bottom of the web UI, and double click on a patch name. I'm not sure if all of the Boutique and/or the original synth patches are there, but a lot of them are. Obviously, without a Boutique, you won't be able to hear them. But at least you can use them as a guide to create patches on the S8.

another curiosity - the roland cloud, are the patches identical to the system-8's or what? (i think so) and does the cloud VSTs have librarians?


The Roland Cloud plug-outs for the System 8 have no patches, no patch management, no library. They are completely unlike the System-1 plug-outs in that way. They interface with the controls of the S8, and they are VSTs. But without the patch management, they are virtually useless and uninteresting to me at this time.

i wonder if this guy (or anyone else) could knock up a S8 librarian. would definitely donate towards that.


IIRC, one of the reasons it was easier for B&B to create these is that the patch file format of the Boutiques is simply ASCII. They're short files with nothing but values representing the position of the controls. Something like the waveform dial isn't even listed as "saw, square, PWM" and so on. It's just 1, 2, 3...

That's why these files are incompatible with the System-8. Control parameters and ranges are different. Also, IIRC, having looked at the contents of my S8 SD card, the S8 file format is binary. The format and values are more obfuscated to a 3rd party, making it difficult to create a patch manager.

The ball is in Roland's court. Without software that supports patch management and possibly SysEx documentation, this is all we got.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby Acidizer » 17:20, 11 May 2017

great info, thanks. not sure i'm smart enough to comprehend a lot of it though... lol.

if the SH101 plug-out on the S8 has a librarian, even though it was adapted from the S1 to work in the S8, that gives me hope at least.

i would like to think roland has many system-8 goodies still up there sleeves. i'm sure they do... but i guess it is sales-dependant? though the JDXA got good axial support and a librarian etc, not sure that was a big hit sales wise, but who knows - the S8 just seems like it has more commercial appeal. may have "flopped".
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby Acidizer » 17:28, 11 May 2017

buckyswider wrote:Anyhow, if anyone wants a setting breakdown from the JP-08 to try to recreate on the S8 let me know...


me for one, definitely. though we'd need to determine what patches aren't overlaps, and what ones are unique to the JP08. interested in pad sounds especially :)

i would without a doubt recommend the system-8 if you can - maybe trade in the boutique against it. i was hesitant because of the price tag, humming and hawing whether to pull the trigger, since it'll probably end up in the GAS pile unloved... but i have been using it more than all my other synths put together. i "get it out" most days! very inspiring and flexible. you could spend years mastering it, unless you were already a guru. the 8 voice limit hasn't been an issue for me personally, but i am getting an MPC live to multi-track the hell out of it, like the YT guy you mentioned, i assume.

check this guy out. he records parts at a time, then assembles them, i think that's what you meant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHra6RgAeQ
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby rsaintjohn » 18:08, 11 May 2017

Acidizer wrote:i would like to think roland has many system-8 goodies still up there sleeves. i'm sure they do...


They do. We'll see some more this summer.

but i guess it is sales-dependant? though the JDXA got good axial support and a librarian etc, not sure that was a big hit sales wise, but who knows - the S8 just seems like it has more commercial appeal. may have "flopped".


Based on some exchanges with Roland folks, and reps at two of my retailers, the S8 is definitely not considered a flop. It performed very well in its first 6 months, and I think will see support for quite some time.

I think one of the challenges for them right now is finding the right way to position a lot of these different development teams (AIRA, Cloud, ACB, etc.) initiatives with each other. In the case of the Roland Cloud S8 plug-outs, I suspect they were just anxious to get them out there, and that they weren't quite finished.

I think we'll see more clarity (and hopefully new tools) by July/August timeframe.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby runningman67 » 19:25, 11 May 2017

Rsaintjohn, thanks for all your input regarding the S8.
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby buckyswider » 23:01, 11 May 2017

Acidizer wrote:
buckyswider wrote:Anyhow, if anyone wants a setting breakdown from the JP-08 to try to recreate on the S8 let me know...


me for one, definitely. though we'd need to determine what patches aren't overlaps, and what ones are unique to the JP08. interested in pad sounds especially :)

i would without a doubt recommend the system-8 if you can - maybe trade in the boutique against it. i was hesitant because of the price tag, humming and hawing whether to pull the trigger, since it'll probably end up in the GAS pile unloved... but i have been using it more than all my other synths put together. i "get it out" most days! very inspiring and flexible. you could spend years mastering it, unless you were already a guru. the 8 voice limit hasn't been an issue for me personally, but i am getting an MPC live to multi-track the hell out of it, like the YT guy you mentioned, i assume.

check this guy out. he records parts at a time, then assembles them, i think that's what you meant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHra6RgAeQ


Here's the factory patch list; let me know which you want. It will be a screenshot type of operation, so pretty tedious. http://media.aadl.org/files/catalog_gui ... ndlist.pdf

In the meantime, here's the lead riff from this video, if anyone want to take a shot at recreating it on the S8: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1XXRduzLok

Image

EDIT; Looks like you'll need to right click/edit it new tab (on windows/chrome at least) to see the full image. Maybe if I link a smaller image the whole thing will show up? But then it will probably be hard to read...
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Re: System-8 vs. JP-08

Postby rsaintjohn » 12:28, 17 May 2017

Boutique JU-06 and JP-08 have been updated to version 1.20, which enables them to be put into "Control Mode", so they can be used as hardware controllers for the Juno 106 and Jupiter 8 software plug-outs available through Roland Cloud. This might be a step closer to a way to transfer patches between the System-8 and those Boutiques, but I think the Cloud software will need to be updated first. Unfortunately I'm on the road, so have no way of testing to see what this might mean for the combination of a System-8, the Jupiter 8 plugout software and a JP-08.
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