Roland, Listen up! :)

[sl23]

I bought the Fantom 6 on 24th May 2022 and returned it, in less than a week, on 28th May 2022! Why? Well here's a list... I've tried to describe my issues and why they are a problem, without resorting to ranting and trying to keep criticism constructive, in the hope that one day they will be rectified and if so, I will then reconsider purchasing this marvellous instrument.

Tbh, I liked the Fantom and regretted having to return it. But, I just couldn't get past all these issues, some of which are quite major! Anyway, onto the list...

• 1. First and foremost, this thing really should have a linear sequencer! How many requests will it take for you to realise that's what people want?

• 2. Saving Tones. Ok, this takes a bit of explaining. Back to the XP60 days, you could save a Performance (like a Scene) and ALL Patches (Tones) were saved WITH that Performance. No need to save a Tone separately before saving a Scene! This is a really stupid way of working. Ok so you load a Scene, select the first Zen-core sound, and all you want is to switch the Portamento on. You then have to save this as a User Tone or the Scene forgets it! Now, let's say later, you load a Second Scene. Wanting to use that same Tone, except this time you only want to adjust the parameter for LFO Type. Again you have to save this Tone to a User slot. You could do this a 1000 times and use a 1000 User slots for the SAME Tone!!! All because this information doesn't get saved with a Scene! Which is something 25 year old hardware can do!!! Saving Tones to User slots should absolutely NOT be mandatory, it should be a choice. Do you have to save Patches of ALL your VST's in a DAW? No. It's ridiculous to even contemplate that idea! They are all saved with the project, just as they should be!
  
  Thing is, by NOT saving Tone adjustments within a Scene, it forces you to save them in User slots, which then causes issues for backup and restore. having to keep track of what goes where all the time. That's like loading a project into a DAW and having to relocate all the samples, VST's and patches each time things are moved! MuLab saves everything into one file. This is the way! ;)

• 3. Exporting a Scene as a Mix or separate WAV's. I couldn't find any info on how to do this, is it possible? I made a Scene and wanted to export it. The only way I could do this is to Sample every track and export that Pad Sample as a WAV. Really? a Very convoluted way of working, when really, this should be in the Utility Menu area.

• 4.According to the user FGM here, you are able to record the EDIT Knob movements into the sequencer to provide say, an automated Cutoff sweep. However, I could not find any way to do this. I could find no reference online or in the manual that indicates this is possible. I also could not achieve this using the in store demo Fantom6. Why is this not possible on a £3k machine? It's basic functioning that can even be done on a Volca!

• 5. EDIT Knobs don't send MIDI data to external synths!!! Why not? Again, another basic function that should be included. This should NOT even need to be spoken of, it's one of the most fundamental things that MIDI keyboards do! Try assigning CC74 to the Assignable Knobs and then do a fast filter sweep with, go on try it and you'll see how utterly useless it is! So, despite already having numerous controls to edit parameters for Tones on the front panel, I have to go to the trouble of assigning these same functions to inferior controllers in order to actually record them into the sequencer? Very dumb!

• 6. Recording. Why can't you go to any other synth area whilst recording and change a parameter to record that into the sequencer? Again, something that was possible on the XP60 25 years ago!

• 7. Motional Pad. A missed opportunity here. This needs to be greatly expanded to allow ANY parameter within the Tone's architecture to be changed and for those modulations you perform to be recorded into the sequencer.

• 8. Recording. Why can't I save the Recording setup? I'm got sick of changing the parameters to Mix,Grid, Grid Type and Wait Note every time I pressed the Record button in a new Scene or on a new Track.

• 9. Assignable Controllers. Surely these should be used for more than just CC control. Imagine being able to assign ANY Tone Parameter and control that to ANY of the assignable controllers.

• 10. Too many Tones, especially Pads, are far too quiet in comparison to other sounds. Even with Volumes adjusted, I couldn't get them loud enough to be heard properly in a mix.

• 11. Far too many similar sounding Tones.

• 12. If your going to put a touch screen on a synth (or anything else for that matter) in this day and age, you really should be using Gorilla Glass, not plastic, to protect it. Over time, plastic scratches and wears, which then looks awful and will probably reduce it's effectiveness as a touch screen.

• 13. Workflow is pretty good in most areas, but some need serious attention. Sampling was easy, but finding out how to edit a sample was not. Recording automation needs a lot of work.

• 14. One thing that annoyed me was changing Tones in a track. Wherever I was, I had to go to the sequencer and press the screen of the relevant track to change it's Tone. Why isn't there a dedicated button for arguably one of the most important functions on here? Maybe I missed something?

Well, there's my list of annoyances and issues with this unit. Some are so ridiculous as to why they don't exist already that it's quite astounding! But overall, that's why I returned it. It is my hope that many of these issues will get resolved with future updates so that I can once again be a Roland workstation owner, just as I used to be. The XP60 was a dream to use. But I wanted sampling so sold it and bought an MC909, which is exactly the same but very much enhanced, obviously without the keyboard though. I miss both of those and they are the reason I am a Roland fan. But since the Fantom G6, which I couldn't afford during it's lifetime, there hasn't been anything worthy of my purchase. This new Fantom is like it has been designed by kids at school! Sorry Roland, but you really need a kick up the ass! Get back to your roots and release a REAL workstation again like the G6!!! I could design a better synth than that, and I'm not even a designer!!!

[xp30]

I am trying to clarify some points for readers of the post who are interested in a different perspective. I will skip the points that are workstation-focused, because I do not have a lot of experience with these workflows.

Let me start with: I agree that the Fantom is not the right tool for everyone and every use case. For example, the Fantom does not include a linear sequencer, and although the pattern sequences supports patterns with up to 64 measures, it does not cover all use cases of a linear sequencer.

Adding more information to some of the mentioned issues:

• (5) Edit knobs in the synth section: The knobs send MIDI SYSEX messages if Transmit Edit Data is enabled in the system settings, and depending on the external hardware/software, these SYSEX messages can be recorded and replayed. The edit knobs in the synth section do not send any MIDI CC messages.
• (9) Assignable controllers: The assignable knobs and sliders (as well as the wheels and assignable switches) can be used to affect many synth and effect (MFX) parameters. They are configured in the MATRIX CONTROL and MFX CTRL sections. Matrix control supports about 40 different destinations within the partial and contains 4 slots per partial with 4 destinations each. The mfx ctrl section contains 4 slots per tone, and the destinations depend on the selected MFX.
• (10) Volume of Pad tones in comparison to other tones: I can not reproduce the described effect. In my experience, the volume of tones is fairly well balanced. I quickly compared the volume of the first Zen-Core Piano (PR-A:0189 Ac Pop Piano 1) against the first Zen-Core Pad of each bank (PR-A:0025 Shine Pad, PR-B:0148 AX JP Strings, PR-C:0005 SL-JP8 5, PR-D:0001 JP8 Strings1, PR-E:0307 JP-8 Str 1, CMN:0342 Syn Strings 1), and to my ears, they seem to have a similar level (although most of them are velocity sensitive). When checking tones, I recommend to start from an initialized scene (e.g. by pressing the single tone button). There are a lot of parameters for the individual zones in scenes, and in the factory scenes, some of them might have surprising and non-obvious values, which can significantly alter the sound of a tone.
• (11) Many similar sounding tones: The Fantom comes with all the SNS and PCMS tones of the previous generation (FA-06, Integra). They are stored in banks PR-C, PR-D and PR-E, and contribute more than 2,100 to the almost 3,700 Zen-Core tones (ignoring expansions). To make it easier to find tones, the Fantom has a rating function and a search function, in addition to the categories, and you can ignore the banks PR-C, PR-D and PR-E if you are not interested in the sounds from the previous generations.

[FGM]

Thank you.

Fantom was released after a gap of ten years, so I don't think another one is coming any soon. Yamaha and Roland are going via software updates and that is it.

Barring Fantom, what keyboard synth are you recommending then ?

[sl23]

I understand your point of view far better than you realise. This is your first synth, so you said. You are bound to be enamoured by it, respect it and bleed for it! But I tell you this, you have no idea what you are doing.

There was a time, probably before you can recall, when hardware was released that actually worked out of the box. There were no updates and no further support. But it wasn't required, because if your hardware had a bug, it was classed as faulty and replaced. Hardware wasn't released if it was faulty, because people wouldn't tolerate it.

So you think it's ok that the Fantom can't record Edit Knob movements? When just about everything out there that has a sequencer can do this? £3k for a synth that can't perform one of the most basic standardised functions of anything with a sequencer and your happy with that? Perhaps you don't use it? Or perhaps you're lying to yourself so as to justify it? Either way, regardless if YOU think that ok, FGM, IT IS NOT OK!!! None of it is. It's a complete con and shows nothing more than disrespect for customers as it clearly shows their intent.

Nowadays everyone seems to be ok with the big company's releasing sub-standard hardware. As long as it has some gimmick to keep them happy, just as you are, then they just say that there's an 'update' for that! When I first got my Fantom6, I could select Wait Note in the record standby screen, but it didn't work. THAT is a fault. Hardware should not be released in that state. If your car had these so called bugs, you'd be risking your life driving it! Well, no your not risking life and limb with synthesisers, but why the hell should it be any different?

As you obviously didn't read my post, I will repeat it for you...

I've tried to describe my issues and why they are a problem... in the hope that one day they will be rectified and if so, I will then reconsider purchasing this marvellous instrument.

I said nothing about considering purchasing any other or waiting for another hardware synth from Roland.

And to be perfectly honest, which I always am, this experience has taught me I don't really need a hardware workstation as much as I thought. I would LIKE one, but don't NEED one. So really I won't consider any other. Yamaha are too complex and after trying the Kronos, it seems Korg are the same. There's nothing intuitive about either. But then I dislike Korg sounds anyway, hence why I wanted a Roland synth, that's my preference. I am the type of person that WILL NOT accept second best!!! I would rather go without, and have done many times! There's no joy in being forced to choose something you do not want!!!

In that vain I will quite happily now stick with my software and current hardware synths used as controllers. I was willing to get the Fantom6 on finance as I wanted to experience the joy of using hardware again the way I used to, but I realise that things have changed too much for that to happen.

One day FGM, you will realise the truth of what I am saying! You have faith in these companies, but you do not realise they are a business and ultimately their only aim is to make money. If their focus was genuinely to create what people wanted, there would be no requests or complaints on this forum, or any other!!! I will now depart this forum as I have no need for it... So long! No ill will meant ;)

[FGM]

I am not saying it is ok.

I know there are many barriers and I have lots of posts saying what I thought about them. Many are missing in your post, perhaps because you don't use them. Some were fixed, going from 32 to 64 measures. My last one was about the Analog Filter...not working on version 3.01 ?

My plain question in my previous post was: once MODX/Montage are too deep for the many, and Fantom is to be discarded, what should I buy, please ? I don't use DAWs and am committed to using a keyboard...

[anotherscott2022]

Well, there's my list of annoyances and issues with this unit...It is my hope that many of these issues will get resolved with future updates so that I can once again be a Roland workstation owner

Fantom is not a workstation.

See https://www.roland.com/us/categories/sy ... rkstation/ - Fantom, Fantom-0, Juno DS are called synthesizers. Only FA is called a workstation.

FWIW, almost nothing you mentioned matters to me... but then, I wasn't looking for a workstation.

My plain question in my previous post was: once MODX/Montage are too deep for the many, and Fantom is to be discarded, what should I buy, please ? I don't use DAWs and am committed to using a keyboard...

Have you considered a Korg Nautilus? That's probably the best workstation these days. (BTW, MODX/Montage are not workstations, either.)

There was a time, probably before you can recall, when hardware was released that actually worked out of the box. There were no updates and no further support. But it wasn't required, because if your hardware had a bug, it was classed as faulty and replaced. Hardware wasn't released if it was faulty, because people wouldn't tolerate it.

It wasn't because people wouldn't tolerate it, it's because the technology gave them no choice. It's the double-edged sword of software-updatable systems. In the old days (70s into the 80s), there was no way a user could update the functionality of the board, so it couldn't be released in a non-final state. Whatever was release was, by definition, final (short of a recall). If a planned feature wasn't working right and was holding up release, it would just be omitted. If something snuck by that didn't work right in some circumstance, you'd just have to live with it. So software updatability was a boon. But it also means they can release something with the knowledge that something may not be quite ready or completed or fully stress-tested, knowing they can fix/add it later. In the end, though, I think everyone benefits. The companies can release what it still a good usable product that much sooner, which helps them (from a cash flow perspective) and helps us (because we get the boards more quickly). I mean, it's not like the products we're talking about were ever released in an unusable state... and for many people, it was better to have that version of it while waiting for subsequent updates, then to not have had the ability to purchase and use it until those updates were complete as well.

But it is interesting how this has actually become a selling point, with boards like Montage, Fantom, CP88/CP73, being marketed from the start as being "platforms" that would be updated with new capabilities. The products' "incompleteness" on its initial ship day isn't a bug, it's a feature! :-)

[osflaa]

I do not know if Roland reads posts in this forum. If not, it's probably because of posts like this. And I do not blame them. There are thousands of people like you who complain, demand new features, know better than anyone else and believe that everyone else sees the world through their own glasses. And if the world does not adapt to them, then there is something wrong with the world. You can tell about your personal experiences with Fantom and keep it at that level instead of telling Roland what to do as someone who knows better. If you want to talk to Roland, why not send them your list? This is a user community. I agree with a couple of your points and have a couple of points myself that are not on your list. And maybe the features we want will be included in future updates, who knows. No synth is perfect, but Fantom is the best option for me, a fantastic and inspiring synth where my own musical ideas and skills set the limits of what I can achieve.

[cello]

I think that's enough now. Points made - notably by someone who doesn't like the Fantom and doesn't want to be part of this forum.

Read into that what you will :)