USB-MIDIThru always on

[tommiport5]

I have a Jupiter-X, Software Version 1.30. Even though the Option USB-MIDIThru in Menu / System is "off", it keeps echoing the MIDI notes to the output.

[DesertBoat]

to be clear on what the problem is - it is echoing inbound USB midi notes to the outbound USB midi even with the USB Through switch off?

[tommiport5]

@DesertBoat: exactly this is the case. I am using the synth with ableton. When another midi instrument is set to "all MIDI Ins" and record is enabled, it also plays the Jupiter part during playback.
When I set the MIDI Monitoring to Auto and play a chord on the Jupiter, this causes a feedback loop until the input buffer is full.
And Yes, USB Thru is "Off".

[DesertBoat]

Sounds like two different items:

When another midi instrument is set to "all MIDI Ins" and record is enabled, it also plays the Jupiter part during playback.

Look at the channels that are transmitting midi. If the Jupe receives midi note data matching a channel part, it will play that zone. Default is 1-5. So you need to either change the Jupe receive channels or the other instrument transmit channels.

When I set the MIDI Monitoring to Auto and play a chord on the Jupiter, this causes a feedback loop until the input buffer is full.
And Yes, USB Thru is "Off"

This sounds like another instrument in your rig is looping the midi data back to the Jupe.

Don't see how either relates to the USB through setting. That would be the Jupe being the source of a midi loop for another instrument, not the victim of a midi loop.

[tommiport5]

Thank you for your support. I really have quite a complex setup, and it might very well be pure chance that the problems began when I added the Jupe to it. So now I'm starting with a fresh installation of ableton on another computer with only the Jupe connected. I haven't used this computer for a while, so it will take me some time to go through a year or so of Windows updates. But I'm sure this will help me to narrow done the problem. If everything works fine, I will give you a short update, otherwise I'm afraid I will have to come back with more questions.

[tommiport5]

So here is my test setup: Brand new ableton installation on a different computer. Only one peripheral connected: the Jupe with USB MIDI. The Jupe has Soft Thru off and USB-MIDI Thru off. One Midi track With Jupiter X as In and Out, Monitor Auto and Recording enabled.
My expectation would have been that I can play something on the Jupiter and hear it, maybe with a little phasing, because ableton might double the note. Instead I get a lot of noise and an ERROR Buffer full 001.
To me this indicates clearly that USB-MIDI Thru Off does not work.
Sure that setup does not make sense, but it is only for testing. In my real set it causes a lot of side effects, which I usually avoid with a "Local Control off" setting (like on my good old D50), but this is not available on the Jupiter either.

[DesertBoat]

If I make an external midi loop, turn USB Through On, it does not cause the buffer overflow.

But I can cause the problem with an external midi loop and Remote Keyboard On - quickly generates the noise and buffer overflow.

Check to see if you have turned on Remote Keyboard.

And the only way that causes a problem is if you are looping the midi back from an external device.

Remote Keyboard ON + External Midi Loop = Buffer Overflow

Local off is called Master Keyboard, in Scene Zone settings, controlled by part. Turning on MKB does not solve the problem above, it just turns off the audio, still get the buffer overflow, just not the noise.

[tommiport5]

Ok, we're getting somewhere.
I use "Remote Keyboard On" because otherwise the Jupiter plays only one part during playback. The Jupe obviously expects the notes for the different parts on different MIDI channels, but ableton has the concept "one track = one instrument = one MIDI channel".
The Jupiter outputs the notes on different MIDI channels as I can see with MIDI-OX, but ableton obviously discards them as duplicates.
So now I'm in a catch 22: ableton perfectly suits my workflow of catching the notes exactly as I play them, but the Jupiter seems to have the concept of sending to the DAW what is currently performing.
Do you have any idea how to resolve this?

[DesertBoat]

Best practice is to keep each instrument/patch/part on a separate channel.

To do this, you could make a separate track in your DAW for each instrument. I don't use Ableton much, mostly GB/L/MS.

But, if you really want all the Jupiter parts to respond to a single midi channel, just change the receive channel for each part (Scene Zone) to the same channel.

[tommiport5]

Best practice is to keep each instrument/patch/part on a separate channel.

As far as instruments are concerned, I agree. But I don't like to have the details of sound design in my song. I record a clip, and if it later turns out, that it sounds better on a different instrument, I just drag'n'drop it over.
But it looks like I'm caught in a clash of concept between ableton and Roland. That's too bad, because there are so many things about this synth that I like: the quality and the amount of sounds, the optical appearance, the haptic of the edit controls and even the keyboard. But since I discovered what it's like to let a song grow by firing clips with a push of a pad in arbitrary combinations, I would never go back to a linear sequencer like Cubase.
Still I can't understand, what sense the USB-Soft Thru menu item makes, if "off" setting has no effect.
This was my original problem:

• I record my playing into an ableton MIDI clip. Since the Jupiter sends notes for each part separately, I have to use a different keyboard, but I dont care.

• I play back the clip and want to record something on another (MIDI) instrument to it. But since the Jupiter echoes all kinds of notes back to the DAW and the DAW sends it to the instrument I am recording, what I play is cluttered with the echoes from the Jupiter.

I can avoid this by adjusting inputs every time I change the instruments or the keyboard, but this involves twiddling with the computer when I just want to make music.

[DesertBoat]

Still I can't understand, what sense the USB-Soft Thru menu item makes, if "off" setting has no effect.

I still don't see a problem there - the echoing was caused by Remote Keyboard.

Roland gives you plenty of flexibility.
- If you want to play all four tonal parts from one input, just put the four parts receive channel to match the input channel.
- If you want local off, it is in the scene menu, only called master keyboard
- etc.

[tommiport5]

I still don't see a problem there - the echoing was caused by Remote Keyboard.

The echoing is not the problem, just a symptom that I mentioned for diagnostic purposes.

Roland gives you plenty of flexibility.

Yes, it does.
Unfortunately, what you suggest is on a per scene / part basis. Its gone when I change the scene, or it destroys split zones, or whatever.

When I start with a song, I don't know, what instrument and sound I will use for a particular purpose. I think of rhythm patterns, harmonic progressions, bass lines and melodies. Usually I start with a drum kit which comes with a couple of patterns that I like. Then I add chords from my favourite synth (currently the Jupiter) to create a harmonic skeleton for the song. When I add melodies and bass lines, I often find that the sound that was so great with drums alone leaves no room for other instruments or sounds bad together with the guitar or whatever. No problem, I have five hardware synths and dozens of virtual instruments, each equipped with with hundreds of sounds. I browse through the instruments and sounds while replaying the parts of the song until I find one that matches the rest of the song better. Only shortly before the final mix I tweak the sound, which is when I first leave the scene mode on the Jupe and when I appreciate the great user interface for editing.
But this is only my personal way of doing it, and so it is also my problem that the Jupiter does not fit into this workflow perfectly. I will find some workaround, maybe someone in the ableton forum has an idea.
I thank you very much for spending your time on my problem and wish you much fun with your Apple(?) DAWs, where the Jupiter obviously fits much better.

[jezric]

Ok, we're getting somewhere.
I use "Remote Keyboard On" because otherwise the Jupiter plays only one part during playback. The Jupe obviously expects the notes for the different parts on different MIDI channels, but ableton has the concept "one track = one instrument = one MIDI channel".
The Jupiter outputs the notes on different MIDI channels as I can see with MIDI-OX, but ableton obviously discards them as duplicates.
So now I'm in a catch 22: ableton perfectly suits my workflow of catching the notes exactly as I play them, but the Jupiter seems to have the concept of sending to the DAW what is currently performing.
Do you have any idea how to resolve this?

This is the same thing on the Juno-X (probably because it's the same software). You can't use Remote Kbd (to trigger all parts at once from a single MIDI input) while not having it echo those back to the MIDI output (regardless of the soft-thru setting).

Roland has made working with the X/Xm series synth so difficult. You can't set a global MIDI input channel, it always receives on all (when in Remote Kbd) mode, you can't change the global part MIDI channels in the system, it is only per scene. The internal clock doesn't truly sync (quantize) to an external clock. The list goes on... and yes I have opened support tickets for these things and have either not gotten responses or have been told I'm using it wrong... haha!

I truly love the sounds these synths make, but man, are they ever difficult to work with. Thankfully I use an MRCC unit to control all my MIDI routing therefore it allows me to setup custom rules for the Juno, but all my other synths just work right out of the box (Prophet Rev2, Pro-3, Hydrasynth, PolyBrute, etc.).

So disappointing Roland. :(