New Roland MC-707 Review

[A23P]

While there's plenty of Roland MC-707 Reviews and coverage out there, I did another one myself with specifically a look towards covering a number of things I'd noticed that curiously seemed left out of mention in most of the other reviews I'd come across. The review can be found here:
https://friendica.feneas.org/display/76 ... 1907924221

[A23P]

I brought it up in the review, but just thought I'd restress it here in comment as it's an issue that's quickly proving bigger and bigger:
Just gotta say, this ZERO true patch storage issue with the MC-707 is quickly becoming quite an issue for me.

Zen-Core is a fine enough synth engine, but it's current implementation on the MC-707 (and apparently even more so on the MC-101) is almost as if Roland DOESN'T want people really actually design with it and instead to simply use Zen engines as just a preset/tone module.

To be clear, particularly for non-707/101 owners, it's not that one can't save sounds they've developed as much as they can't currently save those sounds as actual patches/programs. New sounds/patches must be saved as "clips", and a "clip" is basically a combination of both patch and sequencing data. Each timber part/channel/track on the MC-707 can hold up to 16 clips (for 128 possible clips total) and then the totality of clips (along with a bit more) then make up what is known as a "Project". Only one Project can be loaded on the MC-707 at any given time.

The big issues i'm noticing as I develop more patches:
1. It sort of forces one into positions of choosing between either creating more clips for a project than they want just so that they can maximize storage places for their patches OR having to shift through all sorts of clip limited "Projects" just to get their patches back.
2. The fairly in depth category assignments that can be placed on patches is rendered just shy of completely useless as using the categories to browse through patches only pertains to factory presets!
3. The ability to name patches is rendered just shy of completely useless as the only patches that can be viewed by name are the factory presets!
4. It sort of forces one into a position of choosing between naming every single clip they create just so they know what sort of patch it contains OR being blind as to what exact patch is on any given clip!

Adding on to the patching storage and call back issue, as Roland, at least as of currently, has opted out of any Sysex (or even NRPN) implementation AND elected to apply MIDI Program change calls to referencing "clips" in whatever the active "project" is, there literally is no means of making MIDI Program calls to ANY patches at all (not even the presets).
Granted, there's hopefully a later amend to this issue where if/when Roland rolls out a more full MIDI spec for the Zen-Core instruments AND enables patch storage means for the MC-707/101 where perhaps an option is offered in the System settings to have either Sysex messages issued out for Project "clip" and "scene" changes OR Program change calls just so that things can remain backwards compatible with when Program change calls only dealt with clips and scenes.

But yeah.....
Such a wonderful synth engine but how patch storage is actually handled on the thing couldn't be much more limiting..... in fact, again as noted, regular patch storage isn't just limited at the moment, but NON EXISTENT.

[karmacomposer]

You can't save a preset/patch to the SD card?

Speaking os SD card, it needs to be much bigger - 32GB is simply not enough storage. I have loops libraries and they take up most of my SD card storage.

Not sure how to help you. I used to create presets for Korg products, Yamaha, etc. This is my first Roland (mc-707) and so far, I am very impressed. However, why these companies force limitations like not enough memory, low spec SD cards and no way to use an external USB SSD/HDD is beyond me.

Mike

[A23P]

You can't save a preset/patch to the SD card?

As of currently, that is correct.
There is ZERO formal patch/preset/program storage capability.

What makes it all the more odd is Roland has now even added a Random Patch generation capability....
but as noted, there is NO actual patch storage.

At present, to create and save patches as well as create and save patch banks, one has to use the Zenology Pro software (which is $230) and then export the patches they created on Zenology Pro to an SD card they place into the MC-707 and then load said patches or patchbank from the SD card on to the 707.

Will stress, that while the MC-707 can not save/export patches, it is still possible to create patch settings AND to even name at categorize those creations. BUT, those creations are then held on the "clip" they were created on and the "clip" is subsequently saved in the "project" it was created in. One can then load "clips" from other "projects" into a current "project", but there is no way to browse or preview what specific patch/patch settings are on any given "clip" prior to loading a clip into a project.

[jicamasalad]

You can't save a preset/patch to the SD card?

As of currently, that is correct.
There is ZERO formal patch/preset/program storage capability.

What makes it all the more odd is Roland has now even added a Random Patch generation capability....
but as noted, there is NO actual patch storage.

At present, to create and save patches as well as create and save patch banks, one has to use the Zenology Pro software (which is $230) and then export the patches they created on Zenology Pro to an SD card they place into the MC-707 and then load said patches or patchbank from the SD card on to the 707.

Will stress, that while the MC-707 can not save/export patches, it is still possible to create patch settings AND to even name at categorize those creations. BUT, those creations are then held on the "clip" they were created on and the "clip" is subsequently saved in the "project" it was created in. One can then load "clips" from other "projects" into a current "project", but there is no way to browse or preview what specific patch/patch settings are on any given "clip" prior to loading a clip into a project.

A23P, you bring up an excellent point, and one which has not yet hit me hard, but I can see that it will.

I love the sound engine on the 707, and it feels like a great balance of simple and deep (when you want to go deep), and builds on my years of comfort dating back to JV-880 and up through Interga 7.

So far I've just been creating sounds per project and have not yet had the occasion to think: "I'd like to use that great sound I made for that other project", but of course I can see that happening and it is crazy that we can't store the patches independently of the clips within the current project.

I can see that this would require a whole now tier of storage options, and a whole new "place" to be able to store user patches which would be commonly accessible like the preset patches are, and that might be the issue. The presets of course can all be in ROM, but the user patches would need to be in a register of writable memory which would take up space on the SD card. The sad truth is that Roland probably know for certain that the vast majority of users reach for presets (especially on an instrument with so many great sounding presets!) rather than program their own sounds, and that designing the architecture to store those maybe-never-created user sounds was left on the drawing board. Obviously, this makes no sense from a company who helped pioneer patch programmable synthesizers!

Thanks for pointing this out, and I hope Roland designers are working on an epic firmware re-design that will make this a reality.

[tt_lab]

You can't save a preset/patch to the SD card?

As of currently, that is correct.
There is ZERO formal patch/preset/program storage capability.

What makes it all the more odd is Roland has now even added a Random Patch generation capability....
but as noted, there is NO actual patch storage.

At present, to create and save patches as well as create and save patch banks, one has to use the Zenology Pro software (which is $230) and then export the patches they created on Zenology Pro to an SD card they place into the MC-707 and then load said patches or patchbank from the SD card on to the 707.

Will stress, that while the MC-707 can not save/export patches, it is still possible to create patch settings AND to even name at categorize those creations. BUT, those creations are then held on the "clip" they were created on and the "clip" is subsequently saved in the "project" it was created in. One can then load "clips" from other "projects" into a current "project", but there is no way to browse or preview what specific patch/patch settings are on any given "clip" prior to loading a clip into a project.

Hi, first post here!
Couldn't you just have a project for storing and recalling patches?. I mean, after designing a patch in a project save the project, then open the "Bank" Project and copy this patch to a clip in the latter, and in the bank rename the clip so you can recognize it later. I know is a workaround but this way instead of having a said bank of 500 patches you can have countless (as many as yous sd can store) 128 patch banks.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean. Sorry if that's the case.
Cheers

[darenager]

I agree @A23P patch storage independent from project is a big omission, I sent some feature requests to Roland about this kind of thing and also the poor zoom options in Zenology Pro (which have since been fixed) so hopefully if enough users bring it to their attention they will address it.

[sl23]

This was one of the many reasons I returned my Fantom 6 after 4 days! I then looked at the previous workstation, the fa-06, which works exactly the same way. I think the omission of patch storage is a definite choice by Roland so they can peddle the software synth Zen Pro.

I mean, it's not exactly difficult for a company that's been developing synths for that long, synths that used to have patch storage btw, to actually continue with it. So it has to have been a specific money oriented decision, there simply is no other explanation as to why EVERY Roland synth can't store patches, but wait, there is the Zen pro! Something fishy I smell hmm!

[losgatos]

I don't know, the way it works on the MC-707 you can take a preset and tweak it a lot for your project, but that doesn't mess with the preset itself. If there was a separate "user presets" section, you'd still want to be able to tweak them for your project without actually affecting that "user preset" right? So at that point the fact that you simply need to put your "user presets" into a project doesn't seem like a terrible decision anymore. But hey, to each their own. I am okay with how it works now, but I guess if there was a way to have both things, I wouldn't mind either.

What would be terrible: Tweaking a preset changing all the projects that use the preset. Let's not have that. Ever.

[sl23]

Yeah I get you, but what you're saying is exactly how it used to be done on all Roland's old gear prior to the FA-06! AFAIK.

I had an XP-60 and an MC-909, both of these had fixed factory presets as well as user banks. So you could edit a factory preset and save it as a user preset. But on top of this, if you wanted to edit a user preset and use variations in different projects, the edited version of the user preset was actually saved with the project data. Meaning the original user preset you'd saved was unaffected by any editing. If you needed to use a patch from another project, you just saved it to the user preset bank.

So you see, it can be done, has been done and the only reason it isn't now being done is so they can force users to subscribe to their online service! Something I will never do. I just use my MPC to sample any patches at various pitches using akai's auto sampling, pure genius that thing is!

DAW's manage presets the same way. Save a preset, edit it use in a project, the project saves the preset without affecting the saved version.

Personally, these new generations have taken massive strides backwards! Look at the control you had on an MC-909 compared to 3 knobs on the MC-707! Absolute joke! They call that progress?

The MC-707 should have had several knob modes:
1. As it is now.
2. All knobs control a preset arrangement of basic parameters for the currently selected part. And are recordable as motion data into the sequencer.
3. User configurable arrangement where all knobs can be configured for the currently selected part from any of the Zen Core synth parameters. And are recordable as motion data into the sequencer.
4. Maybe even a 50-50 split to allow control of two sets of parameters for two synth parts.

Can't even record patch edits into sequencer like on old equipment either! Many many other things like this make these newer gen boxes inferior to the old gen!

Tbh, technology is more than capable of making a touch screen full daw in a box with ability to run all types of plugins. But these companies, by their very nature, have to drip feed the technology to make the most profit! Money slows progress.

[losgatos]

We don't disagree on the terrible "marketing controls engineering" crap that all manufacturers are pulling off. It's terrible. Step back? Of course, I mean they used to build 32-part multi-timbral synths just for people to connect to their MS-DOS machines for DOOM. The only thing I was saying is that in THIS case I don't terribly mind having a project (or three) with my own sounds. Works fine for me and I don't see what "user preset" would get me that I don't already have. That's all.

[sl23]

OK, I see, I may give it a try if I can tear myself away from my MPC! Lol

I've tried several times to make stuff on the 707, but it's just not gripping me the same way the MPC does! Shame as I've always liked Roland gear for it's sounds, fx and simplicity. They are great machines,that I don't dispute.