MC-707 vs JV-1010 PCM waveforms

[losgatos]

I noticed something funny just now.

As some may know I am using an old JV-1010 as an external "chord synth" with my MC-707 to cut down on voice stealing. The EXT L/R IN from the JV-1010 is quieter than built-in MC-707 sounds and I finally decided to "measure" and figure out what input gain I should be using. So I needed to find some sound that's "similar" between the MC-707 from 2019 and the JV-1010 from 1999.

And I found one! There's "128voicePno" on the MC-707 and there's "64voicePiano" on the JV-1010. So I had two clips alternating between those sounds and I played with the gain on the JV-1010 track EQ. I found out that I need to add +12dB for the two sounds to be the same.

And that's the funny thing: Those two sounds are EXACTLY the same after correcting the gain!

So that piano PCM sample called "AC PIANO2 PA" on the MC-707 seems to be IDENTICAL to the 20 year older sample on the JV-1010. I mean I had the strong SUSPICION that "ZEN" is basically just all the Roland synth stuff since the D50/D10 lumped into one big mess, but now I actually have confirmation for at least that one PCM sample. (Not perfect confirmation, just confirmation according to my ears.) But I doubt it's a coincidence.

Anyway, do with that what you want. I mostly just think it's funny. :-D

[sl23]

Zen Core as far as I'm aware, is the name for the deep synthesis system, which doesn't include the PCM samples. But, it may be possible that the raw waveforms used for the Zen Core system are indeed older than we believe, ie, not modern sounds at all but rehashes of old sounds.

Then again, that's what has been going on for many years now. Rehashing old equipment to get those old sounds back. For the most part I have no problem with that. My main issue with Roland gear is that it doesn't seem very well thought out.

Two examples regarding the grooveboxes.
1. They should've made the MC-101 with the same screen as the MC-707. I would have bought two of those rather than have the MC-707 I now have.

2. The MC-707 should have had the option to turn all those knobs into parameter controls for editing the synth engine. Imagine how much easier it would've been to program your own sounds if these 24 knobs could be switched to synth edit mode, allowing you to program the selected part! They could even make banks of knobs! Giving us 48, 72, or even 96 in total! How could they have missed the idea? Or even dismissed the idea, if they thought of it?

I hope there's an MC-101 mk2 with a much better screen as I prefer the smaller form factor. But it's just a pipe dream...

[losgatos]

Do we agree that the MC-707 reference manual describes the entire "synthesis engine" as it exists on the MC-707? Well, some later updates excepted, those are described in the update notes.

If that's the case, there's a simple exercise: Download a manual for the JV-1080 or JV-3080 and compare the descriptions. What you'll find is that there are actually more similarities than differences.

And there's again plenty of funny stuff there:

- Some sections of those older manuals were deleted for the MC-707 manual, sections that give hints on how to design sounds if I recall correctly; kinda useful.

- Some sections in the MC-707 manual were obviously just "copy-pasted" without anyone checking. For example you can find reference to a "chorus effect" that makes it seem like a "send effect" in some places. That actually WAS a thing on the older Roland synths but not on the MC-707, there only delay and reverb are send effects. Somehow the people producing the MC-707 manual missed that.

In any case, using PCM samples as part of synthesis IS classic Roland since the D50/D10 years. The "VA" stuff was also always there but it wasn't pointed out as "VA" back in the 1980s. They just called it "regular synthesis" as opposed to the idea of using PCM samples for the transients.

I am not trying to pick a fight BTW, I am just trying to explain what my understanding is. I could certainly be wrong! But in my dives through the various manuals old and new, this is what I came away with.

Oh! There are actually even MORE sounds that are identical (or almost identical) between the JV-1010 and the MC-707: "Temple of JV", "2 0 8 0", "Keep :-)" and so on.

[sl23]

Tbh, I'm not as clued up on Zen Core as you appear to be. I admit I find the whole Roland thing confusing as fxxk nowadays! I started with an XP-60 in '98. Loved that thing. I'm no expert tho, just an occasional hobby for me.

Doesn't surprise me that there copy pasting going on! Or that there are identical sounds, patches, tones, partials, or whatever, considering they base many patches on old synths that, like some modern vst's, have limits to their variety of sounds.

There are many similarities to the MC-707's partial parameters and the XP-60's sound design engines. Never understood why they changed the names of everything though? Why did XP-60 Tones become Partials and Patches became Tones? How confusing do they want to make it! Lol

Talking of confusing, I wanted to try Roland Cloud fo free. So I downloaded the app. Which shows the Zenology free vst. Not sure if I installed it, or it auto installed with the Cloud app. But in the Cloud app, it seems to show it as installed. But I can't find the damn thing anywhere on my system??? Their website offers no link to download it, that I could find anyway, and just goes round and round in circles! What a pile of crap! Just completely mystified me why they make it so awkward to do so basic a thing! If I can't try it, I won't buy it! Stoopid people! Only thing I was interested in was the JV library.

[xp30]

If that's the case, there's a simple exercise: Download a manual for the JV-1080 or JV-3080 and compare the descriptions. What you'll find is that there are actually more similarities than differences.

It is no secret that the Zen-Core engine contains a lot of the functionality and samples from the previous models. It is even printed on the front panel of some Zen-Core hardware products, e.g. a button on the Juno-X is labelled as "XV-5080", and the bank PR-E is often called XV-5080, because it contains many factory patches from this lineage.

Some sections in the MC-707 manual were obviously just "copy-pasted" without anyone checking. For example you can find reference to a "chorus effect" that makes it seem like a "send effect" in some places. That actually WAS a thing on the older Roland synths but not on the MC-707, there only delay and reverb are send effects. Somehow the people producing the MC-707 manual missed that.

I think it is normal to create manuals for new products based on the manuals of their direct predecessors. However, I think you are missing something about the chorus and delay effects. The second send effect contains both chorus and delay effects on the MC-707, and this is the case since at least the XV-5080. It is called "chorus" on some models (e.g. the Roland Fantom), and "delay" on other models (e.g. the MC-707), and that is presumably due to the target audience for these products. For comparison, Yamaha also called it "chorus" effect despite also including delay effects, and addressed the naming issue on the Montage by calling it "variation effect" instead. Korg does not name the two send effects and allows you to use any effect in the two send effect slots.

In any case, using PCM samples as part of synthesis IS classic Roland since the D50/D10 years. The "VA" stuff was also always there but it wasn't pointed out as "VA" back in the 1980s. They just called it "regular synthesis" as opposed to the idea of using PCM samples for the transients.

I think comparing the ZenCore VA functionality with the D-50 is not useful. The ZenCore VA functionality is similar to the SuperNatural Synth engine, and actually, bank PR-C and PR-D contain the factory presets from the previous SuperNatural Synth models.

[losgatos]

The fact that the MC-707 "delay" send effect also has "chorus" settings available is a great point, thank you. And I readily agree that with related products, one starts from an old manual to produce the new. I think the whole gist of my observations is simply "this is not new stuff" which is what I heard a lot back when the MC-707 was released. You're also correct about the "VA" on the MC-707 having more waveforms (at least if I remember the old stuff correctly, I might not), but the context here was to say "look, PCM as part of synthesis has been a Roland thing for a long time" and the "VA" portion was sort of an afterthought. In any case, it's nice to learn new stuff, I didn't know about the details of the XV-5080 connection for example.

[vinceriley]

Roland really exhausted those waveforms, but I still love em. I have a SRX-07 expansion with the same waves yet again.
I have been using Roland synths for about 40 years and I expect any new product's voice architecture to fit into the classic PART-PATCH-PRF-VOL style.

from the S-760 Sampler:
As on all samplers, the most basic unit in the S-760’s architecture is the sample. A sample on the S-760 can not be
played multimbrally over MIDI until it is placed into a Partial, that Partial is assigned to a Patch, and the Patch is
assigned to a part in a Performance.

I assume this convention is from the early S-series.