Piano sounds being cut off in a scene

[viniciuscardoso]

Hi experts,

When I'm playing Fantom-06 in a scene with Piano and Pads, the piano sounds get cut off during my performance when playing around the octaves, not following the hold pedal. It cut the lowest octaves when I hit accords chords in the highest octaves. This problem does not occur if I deactivate the Pads in the scene.
Does anybody is noticing the same?

Thanks!

[xp30]

Do you think it is a polyphony issue? If so, I would try changing voice assign mode to SINGLE (see viewtopic.php?f=66&t=69412). It might be that the piano or pad tones are consuming unnecessarily many voices (see for example viewtopic.php?f=66&t=69417).

Can you provide more information about the issue? Consider uploading an audio file, and/or the scene that you are using.

[viniciuscardoso]

Thanks xp30 for your quick help!
I basically have a scene with the following voices:
SN-AP EXSN03 001: Classic Piano
Z-Core PR-D 0087: Heaven Pad 3
Z-Core PR-B 0178: Cosmic Rays

The Voice Assign Mode was set as LIMIT for all voices.
Now I set FULL for the piano and SINGLE for the 2 pads. The piano is not cutting off anymore.
So using LIMIT for only 3 voices could affect in such a way I was running out the polyphony limits ?

Thanks !

[xp30]

The Voice Assign Mode was set as LIMIT for all voices.
Now I set FULL for the piano and SINGLE for the 2 pads. The piano is not cutting off anymore.

There seems to be a misconception that for voice assign mode, FULL is better than SINGLE. In the linked post, I tried to clarify that this is not the case. For tones that mimic acoustic instruments that can NOT play the same note multiple times simultaneously, I recommend setting voice assign mode to SINGLE.

Try playing only the piano tone, use the hold pedal, and try it with SINGLE and FULL. If you listen carefully, then you might hear that SINGLE sounds "better" than FULL or LIMIT.

[xp30]

So using LIMIT for only 3 voices could affect in such a way I was running out the polyphony limits ?

As mentioned before, if unsure, then set voice assign mode to SINGLE, unless you hear that you need LIMIT or FULL, independent of polyphony. With that, let's change the question to:

Can I run out of the polyphony limits with only 3 layered zones/tones?

Yes, you can run out of polyphony limits with even a single zone/tone (and with voice assign mode set to SINGLE). This is not specific to the Roland Fantom. I just created a pad "voice" on my Yamaha Motif XF, where I can play only 8 notes before cutting off sounds (with key assign mode set to SINGLE).

Having said that, it seems that the factory presets on the Fantom tend to consume more polyphony than presets on my Yamaha keyboards, and unfortunately, there is no indicator for how much polyphony is consumed by a tone. For earlier models, both Yamaha and Roland listed in their support documents the peak polyphony consumption for each preset tone/voice. Nowadays, it is a bit more complicated. For example, for the tones that you selected, what do you think, which tone consumes the most and least polyphony, and why?

• SN-AP EXSN03 001: Classic Piano
• Z-Core PR-D 0087: Heaven Pad 3
• Z-Core PR-B 0178: Cosmic Rays

[neomad]

These are the kind of things that are pushing me back to get a F-0 for gigs... I cannot understand what a 2022 synth may have such limitations. Performers need a keyboard to program sounds easily, split, layer, and not be worried about polyphony. We do not have time to workaround every single scene... manually on the road. Simply ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Fantom for the studio, but I need something reliable, capable and good sounding for gigs... not a portable sound lab

[anotherscott2022]

These are the kind of things that are pushing me back to get a F-0 for gigs... I cannot understand what a 2022 synth may have such limitations. Performers need a keyboard to program sounds easily, split, layer, and not be worried about polyphony. We do not have time to workaround every single scene... manually on the road. Simply ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Fantom for the studio, but I need something reliable, capable and good sounding for gigs... not a portable sound lab

Well, there are boards where you pretty much don't have to worry about running into polyphony limitations, because other limitations are built into the board (e.g. they don't let you layer as many sounds, or have as many simultaneous effects, or have sounds that by themselves can use up a lot of polyphony resources)... and there are boards that are very open-ended, which let you do almost anything you want and have all kinds of resource-heavy capabilities, but in the process, are also giving you enough rope to hang yourself. Fantom/Fantom-0 is in this latter category, but so is a Kronos/Nautilus or a Montage/MODX. Whether Fantom is more dangerous in this respect might be an open question, but you can certainly run into this kind of thing on those others as well.

[neomad]

Fair point. But Kronos/Nautilus technology has 12 years... (or more, considering Oasys)...

[xp30]

These are the kind of things that are pushing me back to get a F-0 for gigs... I cannot understand what a 2022 synth may have such limitations. Performers need a keyboard to program sounds easily, split, layer, and not be worried about polyphony. We do not have time to workaround every single scene... manually on the road. Simply ridiculous.

I tend to be pragmatic. No keyboard is perfect. They all have pros and cons.

For me, the polyphony of the Fantom/Fantom-0 is sufficient. Tweaking is rarely necessary, and if it is, it is usually simple. I have never been in a situation with the Fantom where I did not know how to deal with polyphony limits.

Of course, it would be nice if we would not have to think at all about polyphony. On the other hand, I think we are in a very comfortable situation, with a lot of powerful and affordable synthesizers. For comparison, my first digital synthesizer was 4x the cost of the Fantom-06 (adjusted for inflation), and it only had 16 voice polyphony, which was a very different situation.

[neomad]

No keyboard is perfect, indeed. I wish to have a Fantom with the sound of a Montage, the direct controls of a Nord, and several engines like a Kronos/Nautilus, polyphonic aftertouch as the Hydrasynth, etc. My first synth was a Kawai K4 who had only 16 voices of polyphony and was amazing. 30 years ago :-D

On stage, I would like to have one keyboard with dual keyboard capacity, enough polyphony to stack/split 8 zones (not even asking 16), direct controls and lightweight. The Fantom-0 has everything you need, the best in the category IMHO... but if I need to bring an ipad to add more sounds... that pushes me back.

[xp30]

On stage, I would like to have one keyboard with dual keyboard capacity, enough polyphony to stack/split 8 zones (not even asking 16), direct controls and lightweight. The Fantom-0 has everything you need, the best in the category IMHO... but if I need to bring an ipad to add more sounds... that pushes me back.

Regarding polyphony, there is a difference between stacking and splitting 8 zones. The OP layered 3 zones across the whole keyboard, with 3 non-polyphony-friendly tones, and played with both hands. I think this is already some kind of stress test, and the OP noticed no sounds cutting off after changing voice assign mode to SINGLE.

Yes, when layering many zones, occasionally I notice sounds cutting off. However, it happens rarely, and when it happens, it only takes me a minute to fix it.

AIUI, you have the big Fantom, which has the same polyphony limits (ignoring the V-Piano engine). If you are unsure, you can test on the big Fantom how often you run into polyphony issues for typical live usage, and how long it actually takes to fix it or find a compromise.

[neomad]

On stage, I would like to have one keyboard with dual keyboard capacity, enough polyphony to stack/split 8 zones (not even asking 16), direct controls and lightweight. The Fantom-0 has everything you need, the best in the category IMHO... but if I need to bring an ipad to add more sounds... that pushes me back.

Regarding polyphony, there is a difference between stacking and splitting 8 zones. The OP layered 3 zones across the whole keyboard, with 3 non-polyphony-friendly tones, and played with both hands. I think this is already some kind of stress test, and the OP noticed no sounds cutting off after changing voice assign mode to SINGLE.

Yes, when layering many zones, occasionally I notice sounds cutting off. However, it happens rarely, and when it happens, it only takes me a minute to fix it.

AIUI, you have the big Fantom, which has the same polyphony limits (ignoring the V-Piano engine). If you are unsure, you can test on the big Fantom how often you run into polyphony issues for typical live usage, and how long it actually takes to fix it or find a compromise.

Yes, I will test with the Fantom before buy. Thanks for the advise.

In the other side, I use to gig with my FA07 (previously FA06) and the polyphony issued irritated me a lot... remember a complex scene layering multiple brass and wind ensembles for soul/funk cover band, and FA was running out of polyphony. I was crazy about... so in my mind, I cannot accept that the same thing happen with the 'upgraded' version...

[Adnan]

Sound and Classical Cutting in “The Piano” (1993): Campion. This analysis is based on a scene from the Australian film “The Piano,” written and directed by Jane Campion.
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