FANTOM 0x - SuperNatural Piano Polyphony issue

[Lazerlike42]

This has nothing to do with ADSR. In fact, the way SuperNatural pianos are implemented generally ADSR does not affect them, and just testing now on my own Fantom that is correct: you can't change ADSR for the SuperNatural pianos.

FGM, you said elsewhere that this has been your first synth. This has not been my first synth. It's not been my first digital piano device, or my first Roland, or my first Roland SuperNatural piano. I've had decades of experience with this stuff and having listened to the recording and then tested it myself, this is not some kind of user error or something that can be fixed by adjusting some setting. It's a matter of the SuperNatural piano - at least as Roland currently has it designed - having low polyphony. Maybe they can improve this in a future update, I don't know.

[Lazerlike42]

Jabberwocky, on the Fantom I have been layering a VPiano with the SuperNatural pianos to achieve a nicer tone, since the SN pianos sound much better but lack the string resonance and some other characteristics. The Fantom-0 doesn't have the VPiano, but you might be able to do something similar to address this dropout by layering a PCM piano with the SN piano.

[FGM]

And that is all the help I can offer...so far, jabberwocky.

😀😀😀😀

[FGM]

Jabberwocky, on the Fantom I have been layering a VPiano with the SuperNatural pianos to achieve a nicer tone, since the SN pianos sound much better but lack the string resonance and some other characteristics. The Fantom-0 doesn't have the VPiano, but you might be able to do something similar to address this dropout by layering a PCM piano with the SN piano.

Excuse me...

Adding another voice to overcome an assumed polyphony issue...?
????

I am all ears...please.

[FGM]

This has nothing to do with ADSR. In fact, the way SuperNatural pianos are implemented generally ADSR does not affect them, and just testing now on my own Fantom that is correct: you can't change ADSR for the SuperNatural pianos.

By adjusting the envelope I meant THE VOICING, a piano here in trouble, via the adjustments available, be them ADSR, TONE, ZONE, EFFECTS or just some if not all are available.

Whatever is possibly ready for further adjustment and allow us get where we want.

The lack of controls for SuperNatural voices is the reason I mostly use ZEN-Core.

[jabberwocky]

my release was already set to my liking = +8
although, the issue for SN piano's is still present (when using my hold pedal , as I need it for this part of the music phrase)

appreciated your 'try' to help.

[FGM]

my release was already set to my liking = +8
although, the issue for SN piano's is still present (when using my hold pedal , as I need it for this part of the music phrase)

appreciated your 'try' to help.

Great. My pleasure.

If the polyphony is the issue, what point is there in offering nothing less than 16 zones ?

Are keyboard ranges to be adjusted so that none averlaps...?
Mmmmm...

Let us know if you finally achieve it, please.

A delay effect perhaps with a low cut?

[jabberwocky]

As soon as Roland solves this in a software update i'm quite sure they will mention it in the bug fixes.

[FGM]

As soon as Roland solves this in a software update i'm quite sure they will mention it in the bug fixes.

I really don't think so.

Won't say cannot happen, just most probably won't.

Modify a Fantom-0 to match a Fantom ?

Let's say we time the decay of a given piano.
From the highest loudness to a perceived level -20dB will probably be more than enough.

Resulting time too short for your need ?

Going to ask the maker to modify the piano ?

Buy another type instead, going from kid's to upright to grand; then walk the line testing Petits, Babies, Mediums, Professionals, Parlors, Semi-concerts, Concerts...

Most probably larger, fitting higher string tension, different board, different phase angle, better materials and impedance...a mixture of them.

But, anyway, one never knows.

We wait and see...?

[jabberwocky]

? Never talked about matching Fantom 0 with big Fantom ? I m quite happy with the weight of the fantom 0 btw.

I only explained the polyphony issue of the super natural piano s in the Fantom 0.
it s just software code wat needs to be checked and solved. Thats it.

[FGM]

Again: you are assuming it was not downgraded on purpose.

Not talking about matching one keyboard with another, but it turns out truly asking for the same behaviour/performance.

Tones in Integra 7, to my knowledge, as per the operating manual, cannot have delays applied, as in Fantom. Otherwise I would have bought one to use BOTH under Advanced settings so as to have 32 zones. I need different keyboard ranges (INT&EXT zones under BOTH commited so far to the very same ranges to my astonishment) and different timing, accomplished via delays to grant a huge orchestration as same keys are played.

Waiting for Roland to add the missing delays in Integra 7 ?
Oh, sorry, they are not missing, just wished.

[Lazerlike42]

Jabberwocky, on the Fantom I have been layering a VPiano with the SuperNatural pianos to achieve a nicer tone, since the SN pianos sound much better but lack the string resonance and some other characteristics. The Fantom-0 doesn't have the VPiano, but you might be able to do something similar to address this dropout by layering a PCM piano with the SN piano.

Excuse me...

Adding another voice to overcome an assumed polyphony issue...?
????

I am all ears...please.

I have no idea if it would work or not, but the polyphony seems to be a bit limited with SuperNatural pianos while the zencore pianos are fine, so if the polyphony is not "shared" between the two engines, or even if it is shared but is shared in some way that is not one-to-one, the idea would be to have a zencore piano "supporting" the SN piano so that when the SN piano drops some notes the zencore is still sounding any even though it won't sound as nice as the SN piano, by the time you have that many notes in the mix it won't be noticeable.

[FGM]

I know...

Since I didn't find'd a piano that truly satisfied me, I made my own long ago...16 zones.

Steinway & Sons.jpg (3.56 MiB) Viewed 2250 times

The woody pitch I always loved.
The finest pianissimo available.
Outstanding bass.
Great decay.
Love it.

And can be adjusted to any song, matching the utmost need.

[jabberwocky]

Again: you are assuming it was not downgraded on purpose.

Not talking about matching one keyboard with another, but it turns out truly asking for the same behaviour/performance.

Ok, if you say that Roland did downgrade the SuperNatural piano behaviour on purpose on the fantom 0 , i think we can agree that it has issues. However, this was never mentioned (ofcourse) and the reduce was the v-piano imo, and some adjustable parameters for supernatural piano is lacking…

We will see if Roland adresses this issue (or not :s)

[FGM]

Everything is open to speculation or scientific discovery, jabberwocky.

I simply don't go calling it "issue", but just "behaviour".

That is why a gave it a try "trying to help" with that decay.
Going from 8 to 13 doesn't fix it for that passage ?

Although a behaviour can turn an issue as soon as it does not match our preconceived ideas.

Fantom does not allow keyboard ranges such as D5-D2, while Montage and MODX do. A zone wasting machinery not being attended.

Keyboard groups cannot be selected via a pedal, nor can they be selected while recording. A planned orchestration that can not be put on display while recording? Of little interest for me regardless of the initial hype.

Keyboard ranges the very same for INT&EXT zones. They initially offered INT (red) or EXT (green), and that was it, but when they went offering BOTH (yellow), didn't made the difference for each !!!! 16 zones having the same ranges ????
Keyboard becoming therefore restricted via partials to avoid matching the EXT paired zone, and then we found ourselves committed to save tonnes of tones ? I have no empty slots available !

Certainly, things so basic (I am a plain amateur) that make me think Professionals either don't go a bit under the surface or Roland pays no attention to them. Or they circumnavigate and don't bother even telling.

Anyway, still enjoying it a lot, but...