Second Preset for Tone Wheel Organ

[thortschman]

Hallo, may anyone figured out how to change the drawbar settings very fast without changing the scene?
I’m searching for something what is called “Preset II” in the Nord world.
Doing it in real time is sometimes to slow considering drawbar 8th is not available with the Sliders.
Thx!

[anotherscott2022]

AFAIK, there is no support for this, or for upper+lower drawbar settings, or for high trigger... It's a strong organ section for the kind of "near-workstation" board it is, but still doesn't do everything you'd expect from a truly organ-centric board. But why doesn't changing Scenes to accomplish this work for you?

[thortschman]

I think it’s because I don’t want/I’m not used to it. I used to have my Nord Stage with the Band. But new board always means other philosophy coming from the manufacturer.
So I will find a workaround like your proposal :)

[neomad]

Worth it the change from NS3 to F0? I am seriously considering it

[thortschman]

I think it’s very dependable on the use case.
I had a time about 5 year playing in session Bands and needed to program many songs in short time. Nord Stage is perfect for that. But of course you are very limited in sounds and layer/splits.
I bought the Fantom as I don’t play session bands anymore but one specific band. I want to program more details to the dedicated songs where I found limit’s in the Nord.

But keep in mind, Pianos, EP and especially Organ can not hold up with the Nord. For my case I can life with the SN Pianos and the SN EP‘s. The Tone Wheel Organ sounds ok without Band. But in the Band it will not cut through the mix at all. So I added a Neo Vent Mini II, routing the VTW to sub out and via audio in back in the Fantom and the Problem is solved. In my opinion the Organ now sounds better than the Nord.

Due to Piano and EP I would not bring the Fantom to an acoustic gig. For this I would always choose the Nord.

So it’s very specific for what your purpose is.

[vespina]

Due to Piano and EP I would not bring the Fantom to an acoustic gig. For this I would always choose the Nord.

I think that's a personal opinion and I am sure that for many, MANY people, pianos and EPs on the F0 will definitely cut thru THEIR mix.

[thortschman]

I think that's a personal opinion and I am sure that for many, MANY people, pianos and EPs on the F0 will definitely cut thru THEIR mix.

Absolutely, Piano and EP do not have that issue. I found it only in organ. My statement was more linked to missing String resonance and Polyphony issues. What was discussed in other threads here.
But you are absolutely right - it’s a personal opinion and also a question which frequency will be occupied by the Gitarrist!

It should mean there is no F0 is better or worse than any other Machine. It’s mostly about the personal use case.

[anotherscott2022]

Worth it the change from NS3 to F0? I am seriously considering it

Well, you would lose some organ things, as mentioned... like upper+lower drawbar settings, high trigger, and assuming you are talking about the NS3 Compact, 9 physical drawbars and a waterfall action. Piano sound and feel is subjective, but I think most people would give the NS3 the edge there, and the NS3 has the immediate, direct knobiness of the VA synth and effects sections, with all the controls labeled and logically laid out for those specific functions (though FA does have some dedicated synth knobbage). The Nord also has aftertouch. And Nord's morph function is cool.

But the Fantom-0 has lots of its own advantages, e.g.:
... up to 16 sounds at a time (or 8 with seamless sound transitions)
... sampled sounds with multiple velocity layers (Nord only has that in its piano section)
... a selection of SuperNATURAL sounds that incorporate various kinds of modeling along with their samples
... patch selection via 16 labeled touchscreen buttons (vs. 5 unlabeled buttons)
... deeper editability for VA synth and sampled sounds
... sequencer and DAW functions

[vespina]

I think we have to keep in mind that the NS3 is a stage piano, while F0 is a workstation. Two very different kind of animal :)

Victor Espina

Worth it the change from NS3 to F0? I am seriously considering it

Well, you would lose some organ things, as mentioned... like upper+lower drawbar settings, high trigger, and assuming you are talking about the NS3 Compact, 9 physical drawbars and a waterfall action. Piano sound and feel is subjective, but I think most people would give the NS3 the edge there, and the NS3 has the immediate, direct knobiness of the VA synth and effects sections, with all the controls labeled and logically laid out for those specific functions (though FA does have some dedicated synth knobbage). The Nord also has aftertouch. And Nord's morph function is cool.

But the Fantom-0 has lots of its own advantages, e.g.:
... up to 16 sounds at a time (or 8 with seamless sound transitions)
... sampled sounds with multiple velocity layers (Nord only has that in its piano section)
... a selection of SuperNATURAL sounds that incorporate various kinds of modeling along with their samples
... patch selection via 16 labeled touchscreen buttons (vs. 5 unlabeled buttons)
... deeper editability for VA synth and sampled sounds
... sequencer and DAW functions

[anotherscott2022]

I think we have to keep in mind that the NS3 is a stage piano, while F0 is a workstation. Two very different kind of animal :)

Yes, very different, but also, each encroaches on the territory of the other.

[vespina]

I think we have to keep in mind that the NS3 is a stage piano, while F0 is a workstation. Two very different kind of animal :)

Yes, very different, but also, each encroaches on the territory of the other.

Well, I guess it depends. Every workstation can be used to play pianos, EPs and organs. Some of them have many real time controls to adjust several effects and parameters live. In that sense, workstations can step on stage piano's territory indeed. So why the need for a stage piano anyway? Because stage piano FOCUS ALL ITS RESOURCES on those 3 areas and in live playing, in a way a workstation just can't do. This can be expressed on far better/detailed sounds (since you don't have to support thousands on sounds, you can focus all your HW in just a handful of them), more and better live controls, durability, better keybed, etc.

So, if you play keyboards in a band and you play not only piano, EP and organs, but also brass, and synths, and pads, and arpeggios, and need for complex layers/splits, then a workstation is your deal. But if you focus MAINLY on piano, EP and organs, in a band where those sounds are one of the main actors, then a stage piano makes more sense.

So, they seem to overlap but in reality they don't, IMHO.

[anotherscott2022]

I think we have to keep in mind that the NS3 is a stage piano, while F0 is a workstation. Two very different kind of animal :)

Yes, very different, but also, each encroaches on the territory of the other.

Well, I guess it depends. Every workstation can be used to play pianos, EPs and organs. Some of them have many real time controls to adjust several effects and parameters live. In that sense, workstations can step on stage piano's territory indeed. So why the need for a stage piano anyway? Because stage piano FOCUS ALL ITS RESOURCES on those 3 areas and in live playing, in a way a workstation just can't do. This can be expressed on far better/detailed sounds (since you don't have to support thousands on sounds, you can focus all your HW in just a handful of them), more and better live controls, durability, better keybed, etc.

So, if you play keyboards in a band and you play not only piano, EP and organs, but also brass, and synths, and pads, and arpeggios, and need for complex layers/splits, then a workstation is your deal. But if you focus MAINLY on piano, EP and organs, in a band where those sounds are one of the main actors, then a stage piano makes more sense.

So, they seem to overlap but in reality they don't, IMHO.

Certainly boards don't always fall into neat categories. But I disagree with a couple of points there...

re: "stage piano FOCUS ALL ITS RESOURCES on those 3 areas {piano, EP and organs}"

... The vast majority of stage pianos do not have drawbar organ functions. Right there, the Stage arguably moves away from "stage piano" category (which is where the Nord Piano 5 and Nord Grand are) to more of a multi-purpose board category.

re: "if you play keyboards in a band and you play not only piano, EP and organs, but also brass, and synths, and pads, and arpeggios, and need for complex layers/splits, then a workstation is your deal"

... The majority of stage pianos DO have some brass, synth, and pad sounds (so are not focussing ALL their resources on 3 areas, i.e. you don't necessarily need a workstation for these sounds). Though yes, arpeggios and complex layers/splits are not typically found in stage pianos.

Also, the Fantom-0 is actually not a true workstation, since it does not have a multitrack editable linear sequencer. (The defining feature of a "workstation" is generally seen as to be able to create, save, and playback entire multi-track compositions, completely internally. Current/recent examples include Roland FA, Yamaha MOXF, Korg Kronos/Nautilus/Krome/Kross, Kurzweil Forte/PC4/K2700.)

But anyway, to get back to my point about where these boards overlap, or encroach on each other's territory... Nord Stage includes numerous functions which many/most stage pianos don't have (all of which are also in the Roland Fantom-0 except where noted):

* the aforementioned drawbar organ
* VA synthesis (fully editable, too)
* the ability to load custom samples
* an arpeggiator (as you mentioned, in the context of a workstation type of feature)
* assignable outputs (to send different parts of a split/layered sound to different output destinations)
* the ability to create multiple MIDI zones for control of external sounds (though only 2, compared to 16 in the Roland)
* pitch bend, modulation control, and aftertouch (though even the Roland does not have the aftertouch)
* more complex split/layer functions than a typical stage piano, even if not as capable as what can be done on the Roland (most stage pianos support only a single split point, with no more than two sounds on either side of the split, and often less than that)

Those are the ones that pop into my head, anyway. Yes, there are some stage pianos that have some of those things (but not all), while some stage pianos have few if any.

But you may be thinking, okay, I can see where the NS3 begins to encroach on the capabilities of multi-function "workstation style" boards, there's lots there that you wouldn't necessarily expect in a stage piano... but how does the Fantom-0 encroach on the Nord Stage's territory, any more than any other workstation or workstation-type of board would? Good question! ;-) To me, it really comes down to just one thing, that makes it a little more Nord-like than any of the workstations I mentioned earlier... and that's the dedicated controls for the VA synth operation. There's not a lot of them, but unlike other workstation-class boards, you have instant access to dedicated controls for filter type, cutoff, and frequency, in their own section, labeled/placed/sized for unambiguous fast and easy direct operation. And the AMP (envelope) button in that section instantly gives you a touchscreen where you can directly manipulate the envelope with your finger and/or use some of the buttons under the display which automatically get re-labeled to become envelope controls. (They can also be switched from Amp envelope to Filter envelope with a screen tap.) The panel also has some shortcut buttons to other relevant synth control screens. So I think it gives you a bit more of the "Nord-like" simple and instantly accessible synth manipulation that you don't typically get from a workstation-type board. (The full Fantom does this better than the Fantom-0, though, with a greater number of dedicated front panel controls.)

If I were to place the boards along a continuum, with stage piano on one end and workstation at the other, I'd put the NS3 at a point representing perhaps the most elaborate and complex board on the stage piano-ish side, while the Fantom-0 would be placed to show it as probably the easiest and most direct-operation oriented of what's closer to the workstation end.

[xp30]

About the original question: On my Fantom-7, the drawbars send and respond to CC #70-78, and I have confirmed that I can change the drawbars via MIDI by sending CC #70-78. I guess that it also works on the Fantom-0.

One option might be to use a smartphone midi controller app, and program it to send the CC messages for your preferred drawbar settings. It would work well, if you have a small number of preferred drawbar settings, and they are independent of the scenes.

Another option would be to abuse the sequencer. I have created a 1 measure song that contains CC messages for the drawbar setting (and nothing else). With that, I can use the play button (or alternatively assign it to S1-3 or a foot switch) to change the drawbar setting. Unfortunately, the same does not work with patterns, because the playback will continue at the end of the pattern, even if it is set to not loop, which means that all following pattern changes will happen at measure boundaries instead of the time of switching to a different pattern, unless you press the stop button before switching to a different pattern.

You could switch back to the initial drawbar setting by tapping on the scene (i.e. switching to the same scene). However, the organ sound will cut off if you do that, because the virtual tone wheel organ does not support seamless switching.

[vespina]

Nicely put, man.

[jmacnash]

Another option would be to abuse the sequencer. I have created a 1 measure song that contains CC messages for the drawbar setting (and nothing else). With that, I can use the play button (or alternatively assign it to S1-3 or a foot switch) to change the drawbar setting. Unfortunately, the same does not work with patterns, because the playback will continue at the end of the pattern, even if it is set to not loop, which means that all following pattern changes will happen at measure boundaries instead of the time of switching to a different pattern, unless you press the stop button before switching to a different pattern.

I actually made this work pretty smoothly by REALLY abusing the sequencer. I set the time signature to 1/16 and set the tempo up to 300 so it makes the "presets" fire at 16th note intervals.

Pads are set to PATTERN Mode. Number 2 fires 888800000 and number 6 fires 888888888

Hopefully I have correctly attached the relevant files for proof of concept.