Trigger Keyboard SW Group via Key

[thortschman]

Hi all,
is there a way to trigger KBD SW GROUP via the keyboard? When I set the Pad Zone it always triggers the Sample Pad no matter which Mode the Pad is.
THX!

[xp30]

I can't think of a way to do it directly on the Fantom.

There is the usual workaround: The Keyboard Switch Groups can be activated via System Exclusive Midi messages. That means, it is possible if you connect an external device that can be programmed to send Sysex messages when it receives certain events (like MainStage, some iOS apps, or a Raspberry Pi).

It would be nice if these kind of Midi tools would exist on the Fantom itself.

[FGM]

Hi all,
is there a way to trigger KBD SW GROUP via the keyboard? When I set the Pad Zone it always triggers the Sample Pad no matter which Mode the Pad is.
THX!

I think perhaps your aim is avoiding the fact of having to switch to KBD SW GROUP via the screen or pad itself, so be aware key 16 gives access to SYSTEM DEFAULT PAD.

So there are two settings to be had on the PAD: the SYSTEM level (say you set it to #7 KBD SW GROUP via menu, system, general, startup, pad mode) and the SCENE level, say you set it to #2 NOTE PAD.
Now you go into the scene, use the pad to play some introductory notes taking advantage of the huge capabilities the HOLD button brings and then press PAD MODE (will lit a bit brighter #2 that accesses the mode you are already under) and then key 16, lit in white, bringing the pads to KBD SW GROUP. No need to look for a square to press on the screen after reading many options: key 16 is there, lower right corner, waiting to be pressed to switch the pad to the system mode you previously have set.

Yes, #7 will also set the pad to KBD SW GROUP, but #16 is closer to the pad mode button and "is customizable, from system settings, and always there".

Not exactly from the keyboard, but it looks like playing a rolled minor/major second to achieve it, doesn't it ?

[thortschman]

Thank you for all these tips. What I'm really looking for is to switch the Keyboard Group from lets say the very lower octave (left hand). In some cases it's just not practically to change the group with the right hand, as it is still needed to play some notes.
I'm also open to mount a Pad Midi Controller in the left section of the Keyboardstand just to be able to use my left hand to switch Keyboard Group. But this needs the Pad Zone to trigger the Keyboard SW Group and not the Samples.
I really can not find a small controller (only 8 Pads or something) that is able to send System Exclusive as a work around.

[FGM]

Thank you for all these tips. What I'm really looking for is to switch the Keyboard Group from lets say the very lower octave (left hand). In some cases it's just not practically to change the group with the right hand, as it is still needed to play some notes.
I'm also open to mount a Pad Midi Controller in the left section of the Keyboardstand just to be able to use my left hand to switch Keyboard Group. But this needs the Pad Zone to trigger the Keyboard SW Group and not the Samples.
I really can not find a small controller (only 8 Pads or something) that is able to send System Exclusive as a work around.

😃😃😃😃

Have you tried placing the orchestration along several scenes and use S1, S2 or a pedal to walk through them ?

It is the way I use now, although Keyboard Switch Groups were very welcome at the time, but it turns out going through many scenes gives way to a monumental and better managed orchestration, not limited to the yet huge one provided by the 16 zones...

In addition to Scene UP and Scene DOWN you could also use INCrese and DECrease if using a scene Chain, allowing lineal access to non-consecutive numbered scenes that are placed next to each other along the chain.

🎹🎹🎹🎹

[xp30]

I really can not find a small controller (only 8 Pads or something) that is able to send System Exclusive as a work around.

I just did an experiment with an iPad and MidiDesigner Pro, and I was able to create a simple layout and control the Keyboard Switch Groups from the iPad. This is not a cheap solution, because you need a spare iPhone, the camera connector kit, and the MidiDesigner app. However, I wanted to check that the Keyboard Switch Groups can actually be controlled externally.

I also would like to do an experiment with a Raspberry Pi Pico. It costs about 5 bucks, and it supports MIDI out-of-the-box, and it is apparently simple to program. I am wondering if it would work with the USB Ext Device port on the Roland Fantom, which would provide power for the Pico at the same time. I guess I will order one and find out.

[thortschman]

I just did an experiment with an iPad and MidiDesigner Pro, and I was able to create a simple layout and control the Keyboard Switch Groups from the iPad. This is not a cheap solution, because you need a spare iPhone, the camera connector kit, and the MidiDesigner app. However, I wanted to check that the Keyboard Switch Groups can actually be controlled externally.

Okay! This could be the game changer for my use. I have a spare iPhone and I have also the camera connector. I only need to purchase the app. Can you please guide me to the correct app, and maybe some basics about the sysex commands I need to know for the Switch Groups?
I really appreciate any input, as this will complete my live set up. Thank you so much for this help in advance!

[xp30]

The System Exclusive message for changing the keyboard switch group is (on the big Fantom):

Code: Select all

f0 41 XX 00 00 00 5b 12  01 00 00 13  00 00 00 YY  ZZ f7

With:

• XX: The device id. 10 should work for the factory setting. 7f should work in all cases.
• YY: The keyboard switch group from 00-0f.
• ZZ: The checksum. In all my tests, it worked with 00, because Roland seems to ignore the checksum.

Note that this message only works if the pad mode is set to keyboard switch group. AFAIK, the Fantom-0 uses exactly the same MIDI system exclusive messages.

I could not find documentation about this sysex message in the manual. However, it is the message that the Fantom transmits when changing the keyboard switch groups.

I used the MIDI Designer Pro 2 app on my iPad (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/midi-desi ... d492291712). It is not the cheapest app, and I have only used it for an hour. That means I do not know how well it would work. There might be other apps for iOS, however, I tried this one, because I remember it from some Youtube videos (e.g. https://youtu.be/rwMjOTjzTS8).

I also just tried Midi Commander for Android (https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... controller), and it also worked. I can not recommend this App, because it constantly crashes on my phone. However, it is a free app, and you might wanna give it a try to check if using a phone as controller works for you.

I mentioned Raspberry Pi Pico as an alternative, and I actually ordered one, which should arrive later this week. I am mostly interested how difficult the software part is, however, AIUI it should be less than 30 lines of code. I am not a DIY person, however, even for me, the hardware part seems to be doable, if you know someone with a 3D printer. There are many examples for keyboard macro controllers, and a MIDI macro controller is basically the same, just with a slightly different program. The following example might give an idea for the hardware part: https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/ras ... tream-deck

[thortschman]

Note that this message only works if the pad mode is set to keyboard switch group. AFAIK, the Fantom-0 uses exactly the same MIDI system exclusive messages.

I could not find documentation about this sysex message in the manual. However, it is the message that the Fantom transmits when changing the keyboard switch groups.

I used the MIDI Designer Pro 2 app on my iPad (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/midi-desi ... d492291712). It is not the cheapest app, and I have only used it for an hour. That means I do not know how well it would work. There might be other apps for iOS, however, I tried this one, because I remember it from some Youtube videos (e.g. https://youtu.be/rwMjOTjzTS8).

I don't know how much I can thank you. This information will change my live performances. Honestly I thank you so much. It works well! I only need to figure out how to use two devices (one iPad and now an additional iPhone) to be connected to one PC input in the Fantom-0. Alternatively I'm driving one of the devices through the DIN-Midi Connector.
Anybody has an idea about how to connect two devices to one PC-Input (USB-B)?

[xp30]

Glad to here that using an iPhone as a controller works for you.

I also wanted to give an update on my Raspberry Pi Pico experiment: I ordered a model for beginners with 3 push buttons, I programmed it today with CircuitPython, and it works: I connect it to the external device USB port (used for both MIDI and power), and I can use the 3 push buttons on the Pico to switch between the first 3 keyboard switch groups.

The code is simple and about 50 lines long. As mentioned before, with access to a 3D printer and basic soldering skills, a DIY controller might be an interesting alternative for some people.

[thortschman]

Nice, maybe I will give it a try at some day. Real buttons are always better!
What I’m wondering, why can the iPhone not be connected to the external decide usb? It just does not work to communicate with the Fantom. It only works using PC input. Is this something about USB limitations or is there a way to make it work? Would be nice having the iPhone charged.

[xp30]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Devices is a good summary:

Devices may be hosts or peripherals. Some, such as mobile phones, can take either role depending on what kind is detected on the other end. These types of ports are called Dual-Role-Data (DRD) ports, which was known as USB On-The-Go in the previous specification. ...

I use an old Nexus 5X Android phone for testing. It has a USB-C connector, and it can act both as a USB host and as a USB device, and supports MIDI in both cases. I have tested it on the Fantom, and it works on both ports, the to-host port and the external device port. I can't remember if it was also charged while connected to the external device port.

AFAIK, iPhones never supported something like USB On-The-Go (OTG), and it can only act as a USB host. Maybe that changes with the next generation of iPhones, assuming they will come with an USB-C port.

For my iPad, I use a camera connector kit that supports simultaneous charging (via a lightning connector). If you already have something connected to the USB to-host port on the Fantom, then it get's a bit more complicated.

[thortschman]

If you already have something connected to the USB to-host port on the Fantom, then it get's a bit more complicated.

Yes unfortunately I have. I now have purchased the Roland UM-ONE MIDI Interface, and driving one of my device through the DIN MIDI in. Another Cable but it works for the moment.

[FGM]

If you already have something connected to the USB to-host port on the Fantom, then it get's a bit more complicated.

Yes unfortunately I have. I now have purchased the Roland UM-ONE MIDI Interface, and driving one of my device through the DIN MIDI in. Another Cable but it works for the moment.

To better manage those cables and even achieve multiple wireless MIDI connections (up to 5, if I remember well) via a single port...

https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-master/

Own a pair. Terrific.

Also...

https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-jack/

https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-uhost/



Wireless AUDIO in the works...

https://www.cme-pro.com/iwa-instant-wir ... io-by-cme/

1361 supporters already there, 3000 needed.

[thortschman]

To better manage those cables and even achieve multiple wireless MIDI connections (up to 5, if I remember well) via a single port...

https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-master/

Own a pair. Terrific.

I came across that one but didn’t realize I can buy 2 of them and put one in my Fantom and one in my Synth. I use the Fantom to sent PC to the synth and play the sounds with Fantom Keys. So this seams to work fine. And can I now connect 2 IOS devices additionalem to the MIDI connector of the Fantom? This would be perfection.
Did I understand correctly?