Is there any difference between EX upgrade and the new EX keyboard?

[ChrisDuncan]

After giving it some thought, it seems to me that the Fantom is now a dead product line. Most significantly, this means that it will likely receive no new OS updates, like any other retired product. This is an assumption to be sure, but it seems a reasonable one.

I contacted Roland support asking about forked updates since the Cubase integration is only available in the EX. DAW integration is not related to the EX architecture, so I thought maybe they'd keep patching the standard Fantom with non-EX updates. The fact that a week and a half later I've not even received a response makes me think this just isn't a question they want to answer, hence my assumption that the Fantom is now retired.

While I didn't have any real interest in the EX update beyond Cubase, there's now a practical reason to install it. If indeed support for my existing keyboard is dead, that means any future OS bug fixes, tweaks, etc. will require it to be an EX. Their updates page makes it clear you can't install updates from one product (EX or standard) on the other, and that makes sense to me given that there are significant architectural differences.

Normally when a manufacturer releases a new product, there's new hardware. I recently purchased a Montage M (or Montage EX, if you like), which is indeed different hardware from the standard Montage. There's no way to turn a standard Montage into an M, so those owners would have to sell their existing keyboard and buy a new one. I would consider the standard Montage a retired product, and it's reasonable to expect no further updates to that line.

In the case of the Fantom, however, it looks like I don't have to actually sell my Fantom and buy the new Fantom EX hardware in order to have something that is actively supported. I think (and this is the real question here), that if I upgrade to an EX, then it's an EX in all ways except for the logo on top of the new keyboard. Should that be the case, then it would be the same as moving to a Montage M, but without buying new hardware. In all this, my primary motivation is keeping my product in support for any future OS updates.

As an aside, while my perspective might seem a bit negative about buying a keyboard that goes out of support less than a year after purchase (which is a risk no matter what brand you buy), if indeed I can transform it into the equivalent of their next "Montage M" without taking the hit on selling used gear, that's actually pretty cool. I'd lose way more than $200 if I had to sell the Fantom 7.

As best as I can tell from Googling, the new EX keyboard is the same hardware as what I have now, logo notwithstanding. Can anyone confirm or deny that if I do the EX update that it will effectively be the same keyboard as the new EX model that they're selling?

[osflaa]

I can not guarantee anything, but can confirm that all information I have come across about Fantom EX suggests that the EX-label is the only difference.

[ChrisDuncan]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting as well. Thanks, man.

[xp30]

My understanding is that the EX-label is effectively the only difference, based on how the new hardware models were introduced by Roland. For example, the following Youtube video starts with:

This is the Roland FANTOM EX. Now before I continue, the FANTOM-EX is also available for existing FANTOM owners. If you have a FANTOM, you can purchase the upgrade from Roland Cloud. If you don't have a FANTOM yet, now you can buy the FANTOM-EX hardware and the entire firmware comes with the unit.

https://youtu.be/RH3qSlloAvQ

I would say that it is similar to the upgrade of the Korg M3 to the M3XP (except that this one was free).

I think the Fantom is still supported in the sense that Roland would provide a firmware upgrade if they discover a critical bug in the system. For example, if all models stop working on Jan 2025 due to an overflow of the internal clock. I think that it is extremely unlikely that we will see any feature updates or non-critical bug fixes for the non-EX Fantom.

[ChrisDuncan]

I completely agree. And just to knock on wood, here's hoping things keep on ticking in 2025.

After interaction here and other places yesterday, I decided to go ahead and do the EX upgrade. Spending the money was never the issue. Honestly, I was annoyed at the notion of having to pay for a firmware update. Paying for expansion packs, libraries, etc? Sure. But OS updates are typically part of the package. That might be childish, but I suppose I'm still a teenager at heart.

I also equated the price with a less-than-veiled attempt to sell Nzyme to those who didn't buy it the first time. That wasn't a completely fair assessment (partially fair, perhaps). I'm now seeing the Fantom EX as their answer to the Montage M, or as close as Roland is willing to come without committing to new hardware. At this point it becomes a different thing to me. If I owned a Montage, I'd have to sell it to upgrade to the M. With the Fantom, I'm able to upgrade without selling my existing keyboard. Okay, I can live with that.

And I completely understand the new EX keyboard on the market. While it's true that many keyboard players are geeks who aren't intimidated by technology, the amount of hoops I had to jump through to do this update would be embarrassing to me if I worked for Roland. Selling a model where the OS is already updated means fewer product returns from customers who just want to turn it on and play.

The upgrade went without issue, and I downloaded the other two ACBs that weren't included. I wonder if there is an upward limit on how many times Roland can repackage and sell the Jupiter 8, et al. I already had these in the zencore models, now I have them again in ACB. Okay, I guess. May as well have them. The JD-800 is actually something new, so that's cool. And since Nzyme was included I'll fool around with it. I don't do ambient or sound design / film work, so it's not at the top of my priority list to have moving pads, but sure, why not. More pianos, and that's fine, but I've not been enamored of the Fantom pianos. I prefer the sampled ones in the Kronos, or now in my new Montage M8x. But you never know when a modeled piano sound will come in handy. And of course, Cubase integration, although it's weaker than it is for Logic. Still, a nice to have.

I'm not wild about the way Roland does business, and their update workflow is an abomination. It would be one thing if they just weren't smart enough to do any better, but these are the people who designed and built the Fantom. And my grumbling about business practices or workflow ineptitude notwithstanding, I absolutely love the Fantom itself. It's just painful being a Fantom owner at times. But then that passes, and I'm back to having fun with a great instrument.

And now I'll sleep better since I'm current with their latest product line. I bought this thing less than a year ago, so hopefully I won't encounter any more adventures in obsolescence. I can just play the darned thing.

[osflaa]

I think this was a good choice. In any case, I myself want to get the most out of such a good and expensive synth. If there are any purchases I really regret, it's all the VST plugins I've bought over the past 20 years. Sigh....

[FGM]

I think this was a good choice. In any case, I myself want to get the most out of such a good and expensive synth. If there are any purchases I really regret, it's all the VST plugins I've bought over the past 20 years. Sigh....

You mean VSTs for DAWs ?

May I know why ?

I am about to reach 7 TB of them !!!!

Each shows a work full of love and dedication.

The only issue is that it can take months for the user
to thoroughly understand everything.

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

[ChrisDuncan]

I think this was a good choice. In any case, I myself want to get the most out of such a good and expensive synth. If there are any purchases I really regret, it's all the VST plugins I've bought over the past 20 years. Sigh....

You mean VSTs for DAWs ?
May I know why ?

Hardware is good. Software is good. They each bring benefits and the occasional headaches. It's a matter of what you enjoy and what you're willing to put up with.

As I understand it, you're fairly new to the DAW scene having recently embraced Reaper. One of the first things that almost everyone does when they first enter this world is to acquire as many plugins as possible, especially since there are so many good ones that are free.

Your love of plugins may never change, and if that's the case it's awesome, as you've found your perfect toolkit and are enjoying it. That said, dealing with plugins means dealing with computers. Audio computers in particular can be a bit troublesome at times, and it's not uncommon to for us to plan on making music only to spend the entire evening screwing with the computer because something went sideways. So, tons of power with plugins, but also trade offs.

Hardware is rarely perfect, either. However, in this age of constantly self-updating software and operating systems, plus the incompatibility adventures that can arise (aka dll hell), it's much more likely that once you have a piece of hardware set up, it remains stable. The trade off here is that your possibilities are finite and predefined by the manufacturer, as opposed to a DAW where there are seemingly endless plugins to explore.

I'm a Cubase guy. Having been through many of them over the years (and they all do pretty much the same thing), it's a comfortable fit for me. It's also fairly mature. Because of this, I recently made the absolutely scandalous decision to uninstall all of my third party plugins and work exclusively with the stock ones in Cubase. In fairness, I'm a classic rock guy, so my needs aren't as tech heavy as EDM or other genres. Still, the state of DAWs has reached a point where even the stock ones are very, very good. In this case, the trade off I accept is fewer options in return for fewer technical hassles (and authentication dongles).

Unlike osflaa, I don't regret the 20 years of plugins I bought (looking at you Waves). I was happy to have them when I wanted them. I've simply reached a point now were I appreciate the stability and simplicity of having a few powerful tools that meet my needs without having to manage 7 terrabytes of software. Kudos to you for having more brainpower and patience than me in that regard!

[FGM]

See that computers have evolved so much...

DOS, W95, 98, 98SE, Me, XP....I know, I know.

I have never, ever, had a single issue with Windows 11 Pro.

I am enjoying a fanless one with i9 13900T, 128 GB DDR4,
2x 8TB SSD 7200 MB/s.

New versions of REAPER are great, now about to Release v7.19

In v7.00 Containers were added and you can place into them
anything, then run them in parallel or cascade, achieving anything
you might desire... as far as the scripts are available.

To my astonishment I went and still yet go seeing most of the users, fellow musicians, go playing PARTS and when done they hit play, as if playing a CD.

The scripts I have made are meant to play simultaneously HUNDREDS of instruments as you play the Fantom, layering the orchestration via keyboard ranges, ignored keys, delays, added notes, polyphony, note shifts, CC commands, etc, etc.

And when the keyboard becomes exhausted because you have gone programming nearly all 88 keys, simply change
channel, and another orchestration is ready to sound at the command of your fingering as tracks use scripts to filter out
unwanted channels.

Need more than 16 Channels ? No problem: one of the latest scripts of mine achieves the existance of up to 65535 MIDI channels by filtering the layering made in Fantom, so after reaching 16 you set , say, 1 and 2, or 16 and 1, and that becomes
a new MATCHED CHANNEL to be directed to any other, then
reaching the VSTs waiting there. I love it !!!!

In this way all the money spent turns all that collection of VSTs
a real tool happy to comply any wish you might think of.

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

[ChrisDuncan]

Reaper is one of the DAWs I've never used, but from friends who have I think the scripting and customization abilities are among it's greatest strengths. You're certainly enjoying it! :)

[osflaa]

I think this was a good choice. In any case, I myself want to get the most out of such a good and expensive synth. If there are any purchases I really regret, it's all the VST plugins I've bought over the past 20 years. Sigh....

You mean VSTs for DAWs ?

May I know why ?

I am about to reach 7 TB of them !!!!

Each shows a work full of love and dedication.

The only issue is that it can take months for the user
to thoroughly understand everything.

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

Hello FGM!

Yes, I am refering to VSTs for DAWs. Here are some reasons why I regret spending so much money on them. Well, I don't regret it, but in retrospect I realize it wasn't money well spent.
- When the dust after the initial excitement has settled, there are very few of them that I actually use
- Installation, organizing, licensing, updating and learning how to use them takes a lot of time
- Installing a new PC for music production takes a lot more time
- The second hand value can be close to zero
- The stock plugins that come with modern DAWs often cover most of what I need. However, this was not the case 20 years ago.
- When you open very old projects there is a high probability that the projects won't load correctly because of missing plugins
- they can give small glimpses of excitement and inspiration, but in my case they do not lead to better or more music over time. Edit: I have to moderate this a bit. There are of course exceptions. IL Sytrus brought me into FM synthesis and opened a new world for me. Also, although I have thrown all the Waves and Universal Audio plugins overboard, I still use many of my Voxengo plugins for mixing. I can't imagine mixing without some of them.
- you more often experience issues with VSTs than with stock plugins or hardware. Edit: That said, I have also encountered technical issues with hardware, escpecially when it comes to synths made by small manufacturers.

I share ChrisDuncan's thoughts and experiences about software versus hardware. I tend to prefer hardware more and more. Sometimes when I am fed up of technical issues I get my Roland VS-1680 harddisc recorder and Yamaha DX-7 which, ironically, always work rock solid despite being 25-40 years old.

Endless possibilities are obviously a creativity booster for you, FGM. For me, too many choices can be paralyzing and prevent progress in the project. I am interested in playing instruments, sound design and composing music. The technical stuff is essentially tools I need. To me, installing a new PC is as boring as doing the dishes and reporting a bug is just as bad as cleaning the toilet. On these areas I think we are very different :-)

[FGM]

But when you have an idea and start placing tracks, each with a script to filter MIDI channels, then another to select notes, another to add polyphony, another to add delay, another to set length, and another for panning and volume, etc., and finally go and play as a symphonic orchestra by just moving ten fingers... it is a dream come true.

And once achieved, the system itself is so easy to use thanks to the simplicity of my scripts that everything is easily done. No barriers, no issues, no worries, no circumnavigating things that one thought would work one way but actually work otherwise.

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

[ChrisDuncan]

But when you have an idea and start placing tracks, each with a script to filter MIDI channels, then another to select notes, another to add polyphony, another to add delay, another to set length, and another for panning and volume, etc., and finally go and play as a symphonic orchestra by just moving ten fingers... it is a dream come true.

And once achieved, the system itself is so easy to use thanks to the simplicity of my scripts that everything is easily done. No barriers, no issues, no worries, no circumnavigating things that one thought would work one way but actually work otherwise.

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

You either make a living as a software developer or should seriously consider that career path. :)

[FGM]

ChrisDuncan, I appreciate the compliment!

Actually, I am a retired major airline captain, and this project is fulfilling a dream I planted when I was a teenager.

FGM Layout.jpg (2.06 MiB) Viewed 1063 times

FGM Containers.jpg (277.34 KiB) Viewed 1056 times

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

[osflaa]

But when you have an idea and start placing tracks, each with a script to filter MIDI channels, then another to select notes, another to add polyphony, another to add delay, another to set length, and another for panning and volume, etc., and finally go and play as a symphonic orchestra by just moving ten fingers... it is a dream come true.

And once achieved, the system itself is so easy to use thanks to the simplicity of my scripts that everything is easily done. No barriers, no issues, no worries, no circumnavigating things that one thought would work one way but actually work otherwise.

😀😀😀😀
🎹🎹🎹🎹

This sounds like a great system for you! Especially when working with symphonic orchestra this sounds like a big time saver.
My conclusions are: Stick to everything that works and inspires you! Thats why I stick to my Fantom. Despite some oddities and slow audio processing it works rock solid and as mentioned earlier I love the keybed and the wide range of sonic capabilities.